Anocam

Episode 7: Show Notes

Today, we welcome Shah (AKA Anocam), a Tokyo-based photographer originally from London with a unique and candid style in documenting what he sees and experiences. He first picked up a camera 10 years ago and it changed his life! He started freelancing and working for a fashion magazine before breaking into photography, all while building a career in finance. He left finance (and London) in 2017 to focus his full attention on his art and, in today’s episode, you’ll learn more about his process and how his practice has been influenced by his exposure to the fashion industry. Anocam also shares some of the best pieces of advice he has received, including the value of celebrating your wins and having a long-term mindset. We dive into the, why he moved to Tokyo, how custom contracts can benefit artists in the NFT space, plus so much more! Make sure not to miss this fun and candid discussion with Anocam!

Key Points From This Episode:

•    His first thoughts about NFTs and how he came to understand the value aspect of them.

•    How NFTs present a real-life case for the expression “you snooze, you lose”.

•    Valuable advice Anocam received: only list at a price you are happy to lose it for.

•    Hear the story of why Anocam made the transition from a career in finance to photography.

•    The best piece of advice he has received: take a step back and celebrate your wins.

•    The importance of being deliberate, patient, and having a long-term mindset.

•    Why Anocam believes that marketing is the number one skill you need in the NFT space.

•    Hear the story of why he moved to Tokyo and where he wants to go next.

•    How changes like the Manifold creator-owned smart contracts can benefit the NFT space.

Anocam

Anocam on Twitter

Anocam on Instagram

Anocam on SuperRare

Anocam on Foundation

‘A Silent Movie’

WGMI

Reuben Wu

NorCal and Shill on Twitter

Transcript

EPISODE 7

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:32] NS: Hey, everyone. Welcome to the next episode of NorCal and Shill. Today, we have Shah, aka Anocam. You can find him on Twitter, @anocam_. His website is www.anocam.com. On Instagram, he's @anocam_. Shah, aka Anocam, picked up a camera 10 years ago and it changed his life. He's London born and raised, started off freelancing and working for a fashion magazine, and then broke into photography. He did this all while growing a finance career. He left his career and London in 2017 to focus fully on art. He is based in Tokyo now and is a full-time creator and artist. He has a collection on OpenSea called ‘A Silent Movie’. You can find his work on Foundation and on SuperRare. Everyone, please welcome Anocam. 

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:40] NS: Hey, Anocam. Welcome to the next episode of NorCal and Shill. How are you doing today?

[00:01:44] SA: Hey, thanks for having me. I’m good. It feels like a nice spring day in Tokyo. September, but it's quite warm out here. But, yeah, thanks for having me.

[00:01:51] NS: Oh, nice. I’m glad you could join us today. Here in California, where I live, it was actually breezy and cool. It was like maybe an early fall day. It was nice.

[00:02:03] SA: Oh, I just realized that I said September when it's October. This is what NFT time does. Like I have no idea what day or month or anything it is. But yeah, it's actually pretty hot here. Like most days right now, it's still like between like 25 and 30 degrees Celsius. Like summer kind of weather [inaudible 00:02:21].

[00:02:21] NS: Okay. Man, that seems pretty warm. 

[00:02:23] SA: Yeah, it is pretty hot. 

[00:02:25] NS: So I’m going to start it off. Do you have a hardware wallet? 

[00:02:29] SA: Yes, I do. I don't know why. It was actually kind of difficult to decide. Do I go with Ledger or Trezor? But then everyone seems to say Trezor was more reliable and had less problems with it. So I just went with that, yeah.

[00:02:39] NS: Okay. I mean, yeah, there are like camps, like hardcore like Ledger only and then hardcore Trezor. I mean, I have both. I use both. But like I personally like Trezor, the user interface and everything better. 

[00:02:54] SA: Yeah. I think you were one of the people that also mentioned that and I was like, “Yeah, I’m just going to go with Trezor. If it's good enough for NorCal, it's good enough for me.” 

[00:03:02] NS: I guess so. I guess so.

[00:03:03] SA: But, yeah, I will admit I was kind of late. I was later than I should have been with a hardware wallet. I will admit that. I think it was at the beginning of my journey I didn't realize how necessary a hardware wallet is. 

[00:03:16] NS: Right. Well, back in the beginning when most stuff wasn't worth what it is now, it wasn't as pressing of an issue. As more people get scammed, people realize that it is more of an issue or it is more of a serious problem than they thought. 

[00:03:37] SA: Imagine holding like 10 apes. Yeah, you need a wallet. You need to hide those apes. 

[00:03:42] NS: Right. You need to like not – You need to physically say yes, yes. You don't want someone to be able to just hack in and send them – 

[00:03:53] SA: 100 percent. If I owned 10 apes, I would probably just disappear from the Internet and I’m just like I don't want anyone to know that. 

[00:04:01] NS: Right. Right. Send them to anonymous wallets and then – 

[00:04:05] SA: Yeah. I’ll be like Voldemort and I’ll put them in like one wallet each and it’d be like on Horcruxes. Just separate them. Send them off to different places. Nobody's ever getting them. I’m selling them when they hit 100 Eth. 

[00:04:16] NS: Right. Right. What were your first thoughts when you heard about NFTs? 

[00:04:22] SA: First thought, I was like, “What the fuck is this?” Because my first – I first heard about it maybe end of last year. All the people stuff. I guess that's where most people kind of picked up on it, like 70 million. I was like, “I don't get it. I don't understand the value aspect of this.” But then also, because I’m like a proper tech head, I love tech. I was working in finance in the tech side and stuff. Like I’ve always, since a kid, like when someone would give me a toy, my first train of thought was, “How can I break this down and take parts from it and make something with it, whatever?” 

I was interested. First, I was like, “What the fuck?” But then I was like interested. I was like I want to know more. I really want to understand this. As I learned more and more – So I think it was like towards the end of 2020, going into the beginning of 2021, that's when I was like doing more and more research and trying to understand the potential for this or what the future might be with this technology and stuff. I think we've had a few conversations before like value and the possibilities of what smart contracts and stuff and how it can – It's not separate to physical art. It can complement physical art as well or physical print sales and stuff. If you were developed into a smart contract, put in so-and-so collector receives 20 percent of proceeds of so-and-so print that they collect as an NFT. That's a win-win for everyone. 

It's like, it can go hand in hand. It's like when I started thinking of those aspects, I was like, “This is it. This is me. This is me, art and technology.” I was like, “Okay, I need to get in.” Yeah, since then, I’ve just been like trying to push myself as far as I can at any given moment. So it's like, yeah.

[00:06:02] NS: Right. I mean, I feel like you got in still fairly early. I mean, I feel like you were around way back February-ish.

[00:06:12] NS: Yeah. February is when I started making my first piece as for like Foundation. I got in I think February into Foundation. I’ve minted in March. I remember it was 1st of March. Yeah, I just been there since then. Even then though, I think I was like, “Man, I wish earlier.” 

[00:06:30] NS: Well, I mean, I think we all do.

[00:06:32] SA: Yeah. I think, even now, I get artists like talking to me. It's like I have like a group chat I run on Twitter myself, and I was trying to message people and help people whatever. Some people are like, “Ah! I feel late.” I’m like, “No. You're still early.” Yeah, I always here – I might have been here like six, seven, eight months ago, whatever. But this, as like in terms of a period of time where we are in the grand scale of things, this is still super early. 

[00:06:59] NS: Yeah. I still have mixed feelings. I’m like, “Oh, I got too late.” Or, “Oh, man. We're so early.” I still get both of those feelings. 

[00:07:09] SA: Yeah. I think – But even in NFTs, it's just a daily feeling. It's like toads right now. I’m like, “Oh, man. I’m so late.” But it's like the floor was like one Eth maybe a week ago. It's like it's just been a week worth of time. 

[00:07:22] NS: Right. Yeah, it's crazy how things can just fly so quickly. 

[00:07:26] SA: Yeah, it's nuts. Yeah, it's just crazy. It's a different time scale, time frame, different value system. Yeah, it takes a lot of getting used to, I think.

[00:07:38] NS: Yeah, definitely a lot of getting used to, a lot of getting used to like always catching. 

[00:07:43] SA: Yeah. You sleep for like an hour and you've missed like, “Oh, god.” I remember like a good example. The other day, I was in Kyoto and I’m just enjoying myself in Kyoto. Then all of a sudden, I checked Twitter. I got this DM or something. One of my group chats, someone's like, “Look, have you seen the cat's floor?” I’m like, “What's going on with the cat's floor?” I saw it was at like 11.99 and I had one listed at 13. I’m like, “Oh, shit. I need to get home now. I need to go de-list that now.” 

I’m in like this amazing city out here just enjoying myself. Fortunately, at the end of my day, I’m on my way back to my hotel at this point. But I’m like, “Shit. I have to get back as soon as possible or it's gone. I’m losing this thing. Someone's going to buy it.” Yeah, that's it. It's very much a real life, real world case of you snooze, you lose. 

[00:08:41] NS: You know what's funny is I hear from multiple like artists that they've listed something high, whether it's an ape or a toad or some photo from a collection. They listed it high. Then it sells like quickly. They're like, “I never thought anyone was going to buy it that much.” I was like, “Oh, why did you list it?” “Because I didn't think anyone was going to buy it.” I’m like, “Oh, man.” 

[00:09:09] SA: I think I had like a similar lesson like that with like some of my stuff, and it was afterwards. Then on Twitter or somewhere, maybe in the spaces I heard someone or something. I can't remember where, but it was very much only list at a price that you're happy to lose it for. Either you're happy to keep it or you're happy to sell it at that price. 

Even if it's like too high, it has to be a price you're happy to let it go at. Since then, that's kind of what I’ve been like taking on board because I remember – What was it? Even actually recently, some bulls. I sold some bulls, which I thought I priced a bit higher than they should be. But then they went, and the floor started pumping, and I was like, “Oh, man. I should have listed it higher.” 

[00:09:55] NS: Oh, man. Well, I will say if I list anything, I only list it for seven days, so it automatically is off in seven days on OpenSea.

[00:10:03] SA: Smart. This is the alpha guys from NorCal. This is how you –

[00:10:09] NS: So I don't forget about it. 

[00:10:11] SA: But that happens a lot. I forget about shit all the time.

[00:10:13] NS: Yeah, I’ve done that. I had some [inaudible 00:10:16] stuff listed on Rarible that I forgot I listed on Rarible, and it started – A couple of them sold, and I immediately messaged the guy. I was like, “Hey, how did you get those?” He's like, “You had them listed on Rarible.” I was like, “Rarible? Why did I list it there?” Like months ago.

[00:10:35] SA: This is when if anyone's listening and can come up with a platform to like you can watch all of your platforms in one place. That would be amazing. It's like you have like Foundation, OpenSea, Rarible, SuperRare, whatever, so many different platforms keeping a hold of different NFTs into it that you might have up for sale. Please, someone come up with one dashboard.

[00:10:55] NS: Yeah, I think – So like wgmi.io might have something kind of that might kind of work, kind of. I’ll send you some info on it afterwards. I always, if I want to sell something, I only list it for like a set amount of time, so I don't get caught up in like the floor shifting and I forget. 

[00:11:15] SA: Yeah. Maybe I should do the same because when I almost lost that second cat, I was like, “Shit, I can't let this happen again. This is no.” Because the floor moves so fast on some of these things. 

[00:11:27] NS: Yeah. Well, which is funny because you're like, “I was happy to sell it at this point.” But now that the floor is at this point, I’m like, “Frick.” 

[00:11:36] SA: It's like I was happy at that given time to sell at 13 when the floor was closer to like – Then the floor dipped like eight. I was like, “If I can sell at 13, I could probably go back in and buy one or two or buy one more cat and go into a different project.” Then as it got to 11.99, I was like, “Nope, nope. Got to de-list this thing. Got to do this now.” 

[00:11:58] NS: Yup, for sure.  It’s, yeah. 

[00:12:03] SA: NFT game. 

[00:12:04] NS: So, you were in finance. How did you choose or get into photography?

[00:12:10] SA: I think this goes back to my like origin story, I guess. I think I’ve always been like a bit of an artistic person since I was a kid. I always enjoyed drawing and stuff, and I would always watch stuff like movies or whatever. But I’d always imagine like maybe what I would make or how do you make this movie, the sci-fi stuff. When I was like four or five, that's when I watched Terminator 2. Best movie ever. Nobody can ever change my mind with that. I don't need any debates. But since then, it started off like, “Oh, how did they do this? I want to make that. Ah, imagine what you could do.” Inside all this inspiration, I was like that's when I started drawing after that as well. 

As a kid, I drew a lot. So that was my medium of choice, pencils. Then I stopped when I was like a teenager and kind of like completely stopped art as a whole. So I had like just like cold turkey for like a few years. I think it was like when I was like – How old was I? I was really like 19, 20, or so. That’s when like one of my friends – So one of my really, really close, one of my best friends, he had cancer since we were like 15, 16. So after like that battle, he passed away when we were coming approaching 20. I think I was approaching 21 when he just hit 20. But towards like that end period, he was kind of just doing all the things he really wanted to do. So he picked up a camera because he was like, “Yo, I just want to get into like some filmmaking for a little while. Take photos and film stuff.” So he got like a video camera at that time, and he would do this and do that. 

I think it was after that. I was like, “Yo, I really just need to get back to doing stuff I want to do and not just things I do because I have to.” At that time, I guess it was because he picked up a camera as well. I was like, “Maybe I should try this out. Maybe I should get a camera. Maybe it will help me get back to art.” But it was kind of like just like a coincidence more than anything. I was just trying out. I just want to try it. I picked up a camera like 10 years ago now actually. I picked one up and just started shooting. 

Then I got my first – I started working for people. People liked my shop, so I worked – People worked in fashion and stuff. My dad was a tailor in Brick Lane in London during like the ‘90s and stuff. So I was always in fashion because of that, and a fashion magazine was like, “Do you want to come work for us for a bit?” I was like, “Cool.” I’m like, “I’m not going to say no to this. It’s a good opportunity.” So I got into like some more photography projects to do that. I was filming some fashion weeks. Since the beginning, I was like exploring different ways of like music photography, fashion photography, travel, everything, and then doing different video projects. It was just like an organic growth. It would be like I would try something. I don't like this style. Okay, try something else. I like this style, okay. What new skills can I learn to improve this style that I like?

Since then, it's just been like a 10-year process of how do I incorporate like my interests into this shooting style. So back in like 2014, ’15, or something, maybe ’16, I started like animating my thoughts, making them move and stuff in like 3D space. Coming into NFTs now, I’m like, “Oh, I can revisit this thing I used to do like five or six years ago, whatever, and see how I can improve on that and bring it into this space now.” That’s why a lot of my work is based on shooting my own assets with my camera and then doing something to it because photography was just – It was by coincidence that I picked up a camera. Then since then, it's turned into my favorite tool to make stuff with. 

[00:15:47] NS: Hey. Well, you’re – I mean, you've gotten really good at it and I enjoy it. 

[00:15:51] SA: Arigatou Gozaimasu. For anyone that doesn't know, I live in Tokyo. That's why. 

[00:15:56] NS: So, I mean, you're doing art right now but you did some finance. Have you done any other jobs?

[00:16:04] SA: What have I done? Yeah, odd jobs here and there when I was, let me see, high school. Finishing high school, I worked at Gap, Oxford Circus, London. Maybe if you were there for those three or four months in that time when I was 16, you might have seen me there. I worked at the Gap in Oxford Circus. I worked at my dad's shop as well for like a good, I don't know, five or six years from when I was like 15 until I was like 22. I used to help him out in his shop. Then it was just like freelance video work as well, freelance photography video work in London, working on different projects. 

Then 22, 23, that's when I entered like the finance world, doing that finance systems, SQL kind of work. Yeah, that’s been like the stuff I’ve been doing really. But throughout all of that, I think the last 10 years, I’ve always done some kind of like art-based work. 

[00:16:58] NS: It's kind of interesting. I didn't realize your dad was a tailor, and you had that access to the fashion side. 

[00:17:06] SA: Yeah. When I was a kid, I used to go to his factory. Sometimes, he’ll just take me. I’ll just hang out. I just like watch how leather goods get made. He’d make like leather jackets and stuff or good brands sometimes on like their orders. I used to watch it get made. I have like an obsession of knowing how things would get made and I still do. I like understanding how things get made. Right now, with NFTs, I really want to understand like smart contracts or with 3D work like unity and stuff. I like learning how things get made. So, yeah, hanging around his factory, I was always like, “Oh, yeah.” I’ll just watch them make all these leather goods and just hang out, and I was around all this like culture, I guess. Brick Lane is really like a culture-vibrant place, so yeah. I think every part of growing up has affected my art in some way. 

[00:17:58] NS: I definitely see that. I can see that. I mean, you have some good portrait work too. 

[00:18:04] SA: Thank you. Yeah, I think portraits like portraits are one of my favorite things to shoot because it's like I get to show someone how I see them. I often like to try and show them in like their best form of themselves. I see the world as a movie, so I want them to feel like they're in their own movie when I shoot them. It’s like they're like a film star. They're like character. They almost don't know who this person is, but that actually is the reality of this person. So, yeah, I really enjoy portraits. I enjoy everything. I enjoy shooting everything; travel, portraits, cyberpunk stuff, movies, like videos, everything. Everything I enjoy.

[00:18:43] NS: Hey, nothing wrong with that. 

[00:18:46] SA: Yeah. I think the problem comes with curating it all though. Sometimes, I get messages like, “Are you going to post? Are you going to mint this? Are you going to admit that?” I’m just like, “Ah.” I don't know how to like have a cohesive like piece of work then because all my work, I guess – I mean, you know. You've seen like what I do, and sometimes I’ll show you some work in progress. It's like there are common themes in terms of what I mint. But across all of my work that I’ve been making over the last like three or four years, I’d say there are kind of some big differences. Maybe like my movie set on OpenSea compared to like my Foundation, compared to my SuperRare. They’re kind of different I would say, different product lines. 

[00:19:26] NS: Yeah. I see a difference. 

[00:19:29] SA: Then it comes to when I’m posting just like random stuff I like making on Twitter, and someone's like, “Are you going to mint this? I would be very interested if you mint this.” I’m like, “Damn it. I don't know how to make a collection for this.” 

[00:19:41] NS: The random collection. 

[00:19:43] SA: Yeah, maybe. Maybe that's what I need but I need – A foundation has collections now, so maybe I can [inaudible 00:19:48]. 

[00:19:49] NS: Yeah, true. Yeah, but just like the random collection is just one of ones that people request. 

[00:19:58] SA: The Anocam requests list. 

[00:20:00] NS: There you go. The requests collection. 

[00:20:03] SA: It's actually a cool name. 

[00:20:06] NS: So if you were an animal, what would you be and why?

[00:20:10] SA: Okay. So I know straight away it's a cat. Just like I don't know what kind of cat. Maybe a big cat or a small cat. I don't really know but I just know it's a cat, mainly because like I think cats live the best life. They don't care about anyone. They just live their lives. 

[00:20:28] NS: It's true. 

[00:20:28] SA: They get fed. They poop. They get taken care of too. Even if they don't get taken care of, they take care of themselves. They have personality. They have relationships to humans. They just hang out. If I was a cat, I wouldn't have to worry about all this NFT stuff anymore. 

[00:20:45] NS: Yeah. I mean, they definitely don't. They definitely are very independent and live a good life. 

[00:20:51] SA: Yeah. Definitely, it would be a cat. What about you, sir? Have you answered this in your podcast before? 

[00:20:55] NS: I have. I have. 

[00:20:55] SA: What would you be? What did you say?

[00:20:58] NS: Octopus. I went with octopus. 

[00:21:00] SA: Why?

[00:21:03] NS: You know they eat octopus out here. 

[00:21:05] KC: I know. I have not personally partaken in that. Just because they're such a smart unique animal. They can just kind of blend in if they want, stand out if they want. 

[00:21:17] SA: That makes sense. 

[00:21:17] NS: I always wanted one as a pet. 

[00:21:20] SA: I imagine having one as a pet. That would be cool though to say. You go to school one day and you're like, “Oh, yeah.” Show and tell day, you bring your octopus. 

[00:21:27] NS: That would be pretty awesome. So speaking of sushi, what is your favorite kind of sushi?

[00:21:36] SA: Give me salmon every day. Salmon and tuna, like anytime I go to a sushi place, that's what I look for on the menu. Yeah, I had sushi like two days ago. I had sushi yesterday as well. I think I have sushi like five times a week probably, probably. Yeah, salmon, tuna. I do like trying other stuff, but salmon and tuna is always my go-to. If anyone is ever in Tokyo, please go to a sushi izakaya. It’s called Kinka. [inaudible 00:22:06], amazing sushi and the price is really good. 

[00:22:11] NS:  Nice. Yeah, salmon and tuna, those are my go-to. That's like the only thing I’ll order. 

[00:22:16] SA: Don't worry. Sushi’s on me when you come out here. 

[00:22:18] NS: All right. Hey, sounds good to me. 

[00:22:21] SA: That's an offer for NorCal [inaudible 00:22:22]. 

[00:22:25] NS: Well, I’m [inaudible 00:22:26], so it could be anyone in the audience. 

[00:22:29] SA: That is true. Someone's just going to kind of come up to me next year, and they're going to be like, “I’m NorCal. Buy me sushi.” 

[00:22:37] NS: Maybe it should be a new thing. 

[00:22:40] SA: That’s going to become a thing, isn't it? 

[00:22:44] NS: “Hey, I’m punked [inaudible 00:22:45].” 

[00:22:46] SA: Oh, my gosh. 

[00:22:46] NS: “Don’t you know me?” 

[00:22:50] SA: That’s what we need proof of or like a proof of their purchase, I guess. Yeah, this is me. I can show you the NFT. I’ll show you my wallet. 

[00:23:00] NS: So I’m curious. What is the best piece of advice you've been given, either in general or in this NFT space? 

[00:23:07] SA: I think it's tough because I think like in general, it's probably like to celebrate your wins. Take a step back and see what you've done. That's probably been the best advice I have been given in that it fits me as a person, just because I work a lot and I do like to work a lot on my art. I guess a lot of artists are the same, but we don't take a second to step back and look at what we have done. But I actually find that kind of difficult advice to take as well. I find it very difficult to take a step back and look at what I might have done or appreciate any wins or whatever. But I think that is really good advice that I have received, just a bit more difficult to take it. You get swept up in trying to work towards the next thing. In NFTs, because of just how fast everything moves, it's kind of difficult to take a breather on that. But I think it would be the best advice I’d been given in general. 

Also, working in the NFT space, in the NFT space, I would say it's like what lots of people said, including yourself. It's like to take your time and be deliberate. Often I’ve told like when people have asked me of like how should I do this? What should I do about new drops or even just like when they're starting off? It's like be deliberate, patient and have a long-term plan. That's probably like the best advice I have come across so far in NFTs. It's like if you're thinking about even just like for this year, just for like this year alone. In NFTs, that's not a long amount of time. That's really not long. So it's like it’s not going to work. 

When I’m thinking about my stuff, I’m like thinking about maybe collections going into next year and whatnot. How is my SR series going to go going into 2022? It's not just for the next three or four months or whatever going for 2021. I think long-term plans. And that's the best way to go. And as you are patient, as you are deliberate, it's easier and easier to become bullish on yourself of believing in your own plan, believing this is the right way to do things. Or you discover something's wrong and you can fix it. But if you've already made a decision because you're trying to move too fast, in NFTs, you can't take back a lot of stuff that you do. Like it's done. That's it. It's done. If you've uploaded the collection for mint and someone buy something and you're like, “Shit. I shouldn't have done that.” That's actually not the piece of work I wanted to do. It's too late now. It's gone. You'd have to buy it back and burn it. But the marketing's already been done for it, whatever. It's difficult to take back stuff.

[00:25:44] NS: That's very true. I mean, I know they have burnt addresses. But, I mean, does that really mean that it's gone? 

[00:25:49] SA: Right. It's very difficult basically. It's like I think without – I think what it does though, in this space, it's really obvious who has a long-term mindset and who has a short-term mindset because of these situations. So it's really easy to identify who really is in it for the long term and who isn't. 

[00:26:12] NS: Right, right, especially a few months ago for, at least me, seeing the artists that came in hot, ready to go with no history. 

[00:26:24] SA: Yeah. I think it's a patient thing. It's like you don't need to mint straight away. You can spend some time on just building yourself in this space, a community around you or whatever, and then doing it. Because I think some people, like you said, they just come in and it's like, “Yeah, I’m going to drop in one Eth even or some funky pricing plan and stuff.” And I’m just like, “You didn't need to do this. You might not, but you might regret this looking back on it in just like two months’ time.” 

[00:26:56] NS: Right. Right.

[00:26:56] SA: Just because in that two months you've learned a lot more now 

[00:26:59] NS: Right. I mean, I know – And I didn't realize this, but like [inaudible 00:27:04] was in the space for a few months before she actually minted anything.

[00:27:10] SA: Yeah, yeah. I think it's maybe like a good two or three months at least where I saw her. She was just like kind of mingling around on Twitter just talking to people and stuff before her like SR drop. I was like, “That's a better way to do it.” 

[00:27:22] NS: Figure it out. 

[00:27:24] SA: Yeah, 100 percent. Because 100 percent, when you enter this space, you don't have it figured out. You don’t. 

[00:27:32] NS: So true. 

[00:27:33] SA: It’s just like you'll mint something and the next day you'll discover that you could have done something different. So it is a case of just take your time. And, also, marketing is the number one skill to have in this space just like talking to people, marketing and stuff. 80 percent of your time on your artwork will be on marketing. 20 percent goes on doing that, making the piece itself.

[00:27:57] NS:Yeah, that's very true.

[00:27:59] SA: I think that's a piece of advice. It's less maybe what artists want to hear. More they need to hear. Because it's like sometimes I hear I haven't sold this or I haven't sold that. I haven't sold in so and so whatever. And if it's like a big artist, that is different. But it's more like people starting off. I’m like if you're not doing the marketing legwork, you can't expect people to see it, or vibe with it, or understand you or know who you are. It's like marketing is a big [inaudible 00:28:26].

[00:28:26] NS: Is the huge deal. 

[00:28:28] SA: Because like the studio spends so much on the marketing. 

[00:28:32] NS: Yeah, I think – Well, at least just a small tip for me would be like, because I know a lot of artists support each other. They retweet each other. But to always have your append tweet of your latest work or something that's easy to see.

[00:28:49] SA: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, 100 percent agree. If anyone does want Twitter tips. Like I just jump into my DMs. I’m always happy to like – Twitter has been my focal point of all my like work and stuff for the last like two years. And it's like I’ve kind of worked out a system that works for me. But it's like keeping your media tab in check. It lets you find your work a lot easier. But also if anyone comes to your page you can just – Like they can just have a quick scroll and understand who you are, what your work is. I just go to media tab. 

[00:29:16] NS: Do you have any art piece out there that you would like to buy right now? 

[00:29:21] SA: It becomes difficult because there are a few. But everyone's out my price range. It's like anything from Reuben, Reuben Wu. Anything from him, I would love to have in my – Because he's the one I like – Kind of I look at his work and I’m like, “I vibe with this because you use a camera the same way I do.” It's a tool within this art piece. It's not that you're a photographer. Like you are a photographer, but you also do this and that and whatever else, and it all comes together to make this piece. So yeah, when I saw Reuben's work, I was like, “Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's the guy. That's what I need.” So yeah, I would love to own a Reuben piece or even an XCOPY. 

[00:30:04] NS: Oh, yeah.

[00:30:05] SA: I think XCOPY is just like, I guess just his journey since the beginning. He's one of the original guys, but it's also just a journey to get to where he's at now for pricing and whatnot. It's because of the last like what, two, three-year journey. It's not just he went straight in a million dollars or whatever.

[00:30:21] NS: Right. Right. I mean, yeah. I mean, his stuff two years ago was selling less than most of these new artists are selling for.

[00:30:29] NS: I think some editions were going for like 50 or something or like five dollars even maybe. So yeah, I think like an XCOPY piece would be – That would be like one of the ones I would like to have in my picture or Reuben. Reuben is like the go-to. 

[00:30:43] NS: Have you seen his physical piece? Some of his works come with? 

[00:30:47] SA: I’ve seen them like on his Twitter, like what he posted. And the AR stuff, it looks nuts. 

[00:30:56] NS: It looks awesome. If I had space, if I had some extra Eth, I would definitely want one of those pieces.

[00:31:03] SA: Yeah, you can't go wrong with it. That's like actual art. I guess, like, yeah, that's a premium shit. 

[00:31:11] NS: So next question. If you could live or move anywhere, where would you live and why? 

[00:31:19] SA: I think I did that already, because like I’m London born and bred. But I moved to Tokyo like two and a half years ago, almost three years ago now. Two and a half years ago. And that was the move I always wanted to make. I was like, “Yo, like, I think I could try this. I could do it.” And I did it. Now I’ve been living in Tokyo and I feel like an artist content creator life out here now. It's hard. It was really, really hard, but I made it work finally this year, like, 2021. 

I think beyond Tokyo, like, I don't know. It might be the states, like somewhere over there, like New York. Being from London, I’m like a proper city guy. And like I knew Tokyo was going to be the place for me in Japan. And I like going to places that would challenge me. And I feel like after London, the next city that could challenge me is actually New York. So that would kind of be the reason why. But honestly, I can't see myself leaving Tokyo at the moment. I love living here. I love it. And a lot of my creative journey wouldn't have happened if I didn't live in Tokyo. 

[00:32:31] NS: Right. And who wants to leave the amazing sushi you have there? 

[00:32:36] SA:I know, right? I can eat sushi every day. Great sushi for like a dollar. It's great. I love it. 

[00:32:42] NS: So jealous. I’m super jealous of that. 

[00:32:44] SA: Don't worry. Sushis only when you come out here. 

[00:32:46] NS: All right. All right. It's going to happen. So do you have any questions for me? 

[00:32:50] SA: Any questions for you? What do you look for when – So when you see an art piece, maybe this is like more like listeners are interested in. When you see an art piece, what do you look for? 

[00:33:00] NS: I mean, so I’m not into like dark art. So I’m not going to get something that's dark. I guess it's just the right piece that stands out to me, I guess. I can't say that I look for specifics. I mean, some of that 80s and 90s retro kind of stuff will get me. So I will admit that there're some themes that I don't mind looking into or that like that cyberpunk stuff. But other than that, I like to see who follows you know an artist or if they've been recommended or talked with some other artists that I know. 

[00:33:42] SA: Right. So it's like good vibes and community people. 

[00:33:44] NS: Right. Right. 

[00:33:45] SA: Need a toad, right? Doesn't that mean you need a toad? 

[00:33:49] NS: Oh, man. I know. I’m feeling the fomo on that one. 

[00:33:51] SA: I think like you actually have to buy a toad now. Yeah, I think you might have to buy a toad from what you just said. 

[00:33:57] NS: I got to sell something. 

[00:34:00] SA: It's same on my side. Like I can't afford a toad, but I know I want one. I guess any other question. I guess if you could see like any changes in the space, like you think that would benefit the space, what kind of change would that be? Kind of difficult.

[00:34:17] NS: That is a difficult one. I mean, I like the manifold contracts. I think that's an interesting change. I don't know if that means that then they are going to be selling on OpenSea, because I don't know if like Foundation will allow you to use your own contract, or SuperRare, or KnownOrigin. But I could see them having to let artists use their own contracts if that becomes a standard. 

[00:34:51] SA: That's what I’m hoping for. Like it becomes necessary. Like they have no choice. Like these platforms will have to have it as an option that, for example, if Manifold contracts, you have the option to use your own custom contract. 

I did see SuperRare mentioned something like that a while ago about that. But my wife's here to cook something. He wants to have lunch.

[00:35:16] NS: Hey, no worries. 

[00:35:17] SA: Yeah, go for it. Yeah, I think Supra did mention about custom contracts where they drop like the rare token, like the DOW token, whatever. But I don't know what's coming up with it. But maybe it's like you can do these Manifold contracts. I think that would be cool. I think that is the next step, custom contracts.

[00:35:36] NS: Yeah, I think so.  Yeah, and it'll be good, I mean, the fact that these platforms will have to take them. It's just really a good thing for artists and collectors all around. 

[00:35:47] SA: What do you think about – So like SuperRare did the Rare token, right? So it's like that's the best platform to do that. What do you think of that like platform-based tokens or like platform-based DOWs and whatnot? So if Foundation was to drop a coin, then a lot of my NFT work is on Foundation. I should get a decent amount of coin out of that and what not. Maybe you as a collector as well having collected lots of pieces on Foundation. What do you think of like, yeah platform-based coins and DOWs and whatnot? 

[00:36:20] NS: Well, as far as like coin. I mean, can you spend Rare on SuperRare? I don't think you can. 

[00:36:29] SA: I don't think so. I think it is all Eth-based. You'd have to use Uniswap to change it to Eth and then spend it. 

[00:36:35] NS: Right. Well, I mean, but you should. Because ban you use Rari on Rarible for certain things if it's priced in Rari or something? 

[00:36:45] SA: Right.

[00:36:45] NS: So you should be able to – I mean, I would think, if you're going to have a token, like SuperRare does, that you could have the piece priced in Rare or in Eth. So it's like a buy it now at this amount of Eth or this amount of Rare. 

[00:37:05] SA: That would be interesting.

[00:37:05] NS: Otherwise, I don't know what the – I mean, not that I don't appreciate the Airdrop that I got, because it was nice. But I also haven't read up on what they're planning on doing with it. But currently it's just a nice bonus.

[00:37:20] SA: Yeah. I mean, I don't blame you. I think it was the time when you got some cats. So obviously the cats have most of your focus in that time. 

[00:37:27] NS: Oh, right, right. 

[00:37:28] SA: But yeah, I’m looking forward to seeing what happens in 2022 with all these like platforms and projects and stuff. 

[00:37:35] NS: Yeah. I mean, I guess if they – Well, I don't know. If they had like a DOW aspect and then you had like voting rights based on how many tokens you had. Potentially could be interesting. But also, I mean, then the big fishers are making the decisions for the platforms. 

[00:37:56] SA: Yeah, that's true.

[00:37:58] NS: I don't know. I’m not going to say no to an Airdrop though. I don't mind having some extra cash.

[00:38:03] SA: Yeah, that's the thing. Who would? I can't say no to Airdrops. Like I’m going to say yes every time, unless it's a scam. 

[00:38:10] NS: Right, which there have been a couple of those. 

[00:38:12] SA: Yes, that's true. And dude, you need to get your cough checked out. I don't think you're fully better yet. 

[00:38:19] NS: It's just lingering. It's all right. No worries. 

[00:38:22] SA: Lingering. Okay, I trust.

[00:38:24] NS: But, yeah. I don't know what else think about tokens. 

[00:38:27] SA: Yeah, it's too early. I guess that's what it is. It's too early. A lot of these conversations I have with people, a lot of the answers or opinions or trains of thought is sort of like speculation because everything's too early. 

[00:38:39] NS: Yeah.

[00:38:40] SA: It's difficult to say how something you do now is going to affect your plan or your work for next year or the year after like in a certain way, like 100 percent certain. We don't know what's going to happen.

[00:38:55] NS: Yeah. And I don’t know. Shoyu’s platform might be interesting.

[00:39:00] SA: Yeah, I’m quite excited for that. Like mainly for the file size limit. It's going to be like 500 megabytes or something compared to 50 megabytes of others. So it's like the quality of the work that you see on there. I mean, in one sense, because of that, it should be higher. It should give people more leeway to upload better work or higher resolution. Or if it's like short films even, to an extent. 

[00:39:27] NS: Oh yeah, right.

[00:39:28] SA: Yeah, it should be interesting just based off of that. 

[00:39:31] NS: Yeah. I mean they're using sushi. 

[00:39:33] SA: Yeah. Actually, yeah.

[00:39:35] NS: Which tastes delicious.

[00:39:38] SA: Oh yes. Ah, sushi. I’m going to have to get some today. It's crazy that I never used to eat sushi in London, but then in Japan I basically four, five times a week.

[00:39:48] NS: Jealous. Man, I would eat that many times a week if it was more affordable here where I live.

[00:39:57] SA: I’ve sent you some photos of like what I grabbed. And it's like five dollars. Like it's – Oh, it's so good. I have like two sushi places next to my house as well. It's great.

[00:40:11] NS: Oh. I guess I had to visit. 

[00:40:12] SA: Of course. You're always. 

[00:40:15] NS: Well, perfect. Well, Anocam, I have to say thank you for coming on the podcast, this interview.

[00:40:23] SA: Thank you for having me. It's like I think this is one of the few times I speak like on voice chat to you as well, because like I think I talk to you every other day apart from like this is maybe the third or fourth time actually being like over a voice call. 

[00:40:38] NS: Right, right. It's true. It’s just DMs usually.

[00:40:40] SA: Yeah. But, yeah, thanks for having me.

[00:40:43] NS: Yeah, thanks for coming on. We'll have to do it again. Talk soon.

[00:40:46] SA: Oh, yeah, for sure. And I’m guessing you're going to have a toad next time. 

[00:40:51] NS: Oh, man. We'll see. 

[00:40:53] SA: I say a toad, but I’m pretty sure it’s going to be multiple by then.

[00:40:56] NS: Oh, I don't know. We’ll see. All right, man. 

[00:41:00] SA: Cool. 

[00:41:01] NS: All right, we'll talk soon. 

[00:41:02] SA: Cool. Yeah. 

[00:41:03] NS: All right. Bye. 

[END]