NorCal and Shill

Apoc - Artist

• NorCal Guy • Season 1 • Episode 159

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Ever wondered how the battle between good and evil can be expressed through art? Join us as acclaimed artist Apoc unveils the secrets behind his transformative project "Influx," comprising 333 unique pieces exploring this timeless theme. Apoc's journey is a testament to the power of personal identity and authenticity in art, inspired by his culturally rich upbringing in Texas and a 15-year career as a creativity expert. Through photography, painting, digital art, and music, he illustrates how artists can connect with their heart, mind, and soul to create meaningful work that resonates universally.

Listeners are promised a comprehensive look at the dynamic Web3 space, teeming with youthful energy and creativity. As Apoc shares his vision for the future, he highlights the potential of NFTs and crypto art to foster a mature dialogue addressing global challenges. We delve into tales of artistic risk-taking, revealing the importance of balancing artistic vision with market expectations while maintaining a low supply of art editions to enhance value. Personal anecdotes add depth to the narrative, encouraging listeners to embrace their creative aspirations and seize opportunities without delay.

Social media strategies for artistic growth also come into focus, as Apoc discusses how artists can expand their personal brand and connect with wider audiences. The conversation touches on upcoming art events in Miami and Marfa, where more relaxed atmospheres might offer the chance to form meaningful connections. We also explore Apoc's aspirations to establish a new kind of art school inspired by Black Mountain College, aiming to cultivate creativity across disciplines and inspire future generations. As we wrap up, the importance of community and the role of supporters in spreading the word about artistic work shine through, underlining the value of friendship and shared journeys in this creative endeavor.

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NorCal Guy:

Who is this? Who is this guy, who is this guy, who is this guy, who is this guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy.

NorCal Guy:

NorCal and chill podcast Show. It's chill time. Norcal and chill podcast. What the sh, what the sh? Norcal and Shill Podcast. What the shill, what the shill? Norcal and Shill Podcast. So it's shill time. Norcal and Shill Podcast. What the shill, what the shill? Welcome everyone to another episode of NorCal and Shill.

NorCal Guy:

Today we're diving into an enriching conversation with APOC, whose work spans a variety of mediums, from photography to painting to digital art and music. In today's episode, our guest shares extraordinary insights into the art world, emphasizing the profound importance of dialogue between artists and collectors. We'll also explore their innovative initiatives, like structured dialogue events and art card collections designed for deeper community engagement. Our guest will walk us through the challenges and rewards of their ambitious project Influx, which delves into the thematic narratives of good versus evil, featuring 333 unique pieces crafted with exceptional dedication.

NorCal Guy:

We'll hear about his journey into crypto art, the transformations in the digital art space and his perspective on the future of nTs. From his roots in a culturally rich Texas upbringing to a transformative 15-year career as a creativity expert, culminating in a profound venture into crypto art, this artist brings a vibrant tapestry of experiences and wisdom, with visions of Web3 and a collaborative future reminiscent of Black Mountain College. Today's discussion promises deep dives into both the artistic process and the philosophical underpinnings of his work. So let's get started on this artistic journey with our special guest Apoc. Hey, apoc, welcome to the podcast. How you doing today.

Apoc:

Great man, Good to see you. Thanks for having me on. Glad to be here.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah, it's good to see you too. I mean, it's been, I feel, like since New York that I've actually like seen you.

Apoc:

Yeah, it's been a while. Man, time goes fast, or was it?

NorCal Guy:

Miami. It could have even been Miami, I don't even know if.

Apoc:

In Miami in Miami we spent some time together. I think in New York we may have briefly seen each other right, right, right um but Miami was the was the big hang at the house that was so cool and uh, um, it goes fast, dude. I'm surprised it's September already and it just feels like it was just like not very long ago that we were in Miami.

NorCal Guy:

Are you going again this?

Apoc:

year. Are you guys doing the same thing?

NorCal Guy:

I'm hoping to go to Miami. I mean, it's really just depends on if I can get some family to come up and stay and watch the kids while I fly out there, kids while I fly out there. Um, and it's just like right there after Thanksgiving, which is also a hard holiday to uh juggle around, I know, right before Christmas, when it's so.

Apoc:

you know, if you have kids it's super busy, especially but, yes, but it is the. It is like, uh, um, I have a great time in Miami. It feels a lot more intimate and slow and just um easy to see everyone. Yes, compared to new york yeah, oh yeah I'm, I'm hoping to go and bring all my friends, including you yeah, no, I.

NorCal Guy:

I like miami much better than new y I will say that I always have a better time there.

Apoc:

Yeah, I mean New York is fun, but I feel like it's frenetic and a lot of walking and rushing from place to place and then shouting at my friends for a few minutes before they disappear and I don't see them again.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah, or or shouting at them at one place and then all right, we got to go to this next place and shouting at them at that next place, Right?

Apoc:

Right, whereas Miami is just like oh shit, man, I'm just going to chill here by the pool for a bit. You want to play some pool? You want to go for a swim? Should we take a walk Like it's?

NorCal Guy:

really chill yeah.

Apoc:

Yeah.

NorCal Guy:

It's nice, all right. Well all right. Well, I'll look for you there, bro. All right, um. Also marfa in texas. Oh yeah, november. That also is because that month is busy, but I am going to try and make marfa. Um also depends on family, uh, or someone being able to watch the kids and uh. But yes, that is hopefully gonna happen yeah, yeah.

Apoc:

well, I'm in the same boat Hoping.

NorCal Guy:

Hoping it'll happen. So what were your first thoughts when you heard about crypto art, NFTs?

Apoc:

Interest Um interest I. I had been looking for an art community for a couple of years because I was feeling ready to share my art.

Apoc:

I've made art for many years and never shared or sold anything and I because I wanted to just mature a little bit um, which I can get into, but let's find it ready. And I heard about crypto, art and um. I heard about it a few times and by the third time I was, I was really interested, and so I I started learning about it a few times and by the third time I was, I was really interested, and so I I started learning about it. I took about six months to like learn about it and talk to people and watch videos and stuff. I didn't know it was happening on Twitter, so I didn't know where it was happening, right, um, and finally finally joined, finally minted in early uh 2021, started hearing about it, probably not quite a year before that, but like eight months before that, something like that. I can't remember right.

NorCal Guy:

So what brought you to art? How did you choose art?

Apoc:

So what brought you to art? How did you choose art? I have always been an artist. I was raised with a very, I would say, forward-thinking household. I would say forward-thinking household. Both my parents were inclined towards culture and travel and ethnic food and things like that. I grew up in a big city in Texas and my parents were kind of fringe Not hippies. They weren't like fringe, fringe, fringe, but they definitely weren't. They definitely didn't fit the mold and a lot of friends thought they were weird.

Apoc:

But what that really meant was that my sister and I got piano lessons and got drawing lessons and took gymnastics and ballet and had friends from other countries and went to their houses to spend the night and eat with their families and got exposed to different kinds of food, and that we traveled. And a big part of that was like we had this set of encyclopedias and I would just read about art a lot, so my parents would take me to the art museums and so I just got exposed to it and I just was raised as if it's a normal part of humanity. Um, so much so that when I thought about what I was going to do, I didn't even think about art as a career. I, I I didn't really come to art as a career until um I tried a few other things and realized it's not my vibe, it's not where I'm home, yeah and um.

Apoc:

So once I kind of locked into art when I was a little bit older, like 19, uh, I just kind of took off from there nice, so I think what brought, what brought me really into art was just the, the lived experience of the human experience.

Apoc:

So not reading about it and not hearing about it from teachers, but like direct experience of humanity, whether through music or through architecture or through paintings or through opera or ballet. It was like this is where the juice of being human is. So that's kind of what got me into it, yeah.

NorCal Guy:

So what kind of grunge jobs have you done along the way to get to where you are?

Apoc:

So I did some grunge jobs when I was a kid. When I was a kid, I was pretty, pretty entrepreneurial. So my friends and I would like pick mistletoe and sell it for christmas and we would just do anything. Yeah, um, for adventure and for fun and to make some money. Um, we didn't really. I didn't really start thinking about starting a business until much later, but it was like little odd jobs and I moved furniture developing black and white and later color prints and negatives, with the chemicals and later the machines.

Apoc:

So I kind of learned the old school way. Um, in fact I was that's how, that's kind of how. I started making serious art was through photography, okay, and then went into painting and video and digital and music and all that. But I had a first career doing something completely different. For 15 years I was kind of a creativity expert in the field of multi-stakeholder collaboration. So I would travel around the world and create or design and lead collaboration processes among leaders of different organizations or different sectors or sometimes different countries, when they were all facing some kind of social challenge that was bigger than any one of them, bigger than any one organization or sector could face. So I kind of fell into that and learned a lot about government and corporate and nonprofit because I worked inside all of those kinds of structures and, uh, ultimately learned that, um, you know what I, what I really wanted to accomplish, couldn't work in that environment. So I left that career and was kind of scratching my head about what to do next when crypt art came along.

NorCal Guy:

All right, that makes sense. Yeah, but you've been painting along the hallway like in the background, yeah, so I grew up playing the piano and drawing and then got into photography.

Apoc:

Did photography since I was about 12. Put that down pretty much when I was around 20 or 19. Started getting into painting and sculpture and video, did some electronic music. So I've always been multidisciplinary, interdisciplinary, focused on painting, starting probably after college. Okay, just because it was the most challenging, for sure, I think it's really hard, it's kind of surprisingly difficult, and so I figured if I can learn to paint well, then I can learn to make art in any other medium, because painting is the hardest. Now, that may not be true for everyone I'm not saying it's universally the hardest, but for me it was the most challenging and it occurred to me that if I could learn to paint well, then I can also carry that competence across other media whether it be digital or sculpture.

Apoc:

I mean, back then there was no such thing as digital art or it was very obscure because, you know, the programs on computers were so limited. But I started doing digital art seriously about 2003, 2001, even with final cut 7 and and photoshop and stuff like that. Um, even before that, actually 1998, I had a hacked version of photoshop that I got on limewire. Um, you remember that I don't know if you have, if a generation had that, but like you could, you could sort of hack Photoshop and could download it and hack it and get it, but for a long time the, the, the computers just were slow and laggy and the internet was slow. So I I dabbled in digital art but didn't really focus there. I focused on painting for the reasons that I said.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. So what do you think the best things are about web three today?

Apoc:

I tend to look at web three in terms of opportunity. It occurs to me I haven't done the research, but I'm guessing that a lot of people in web three are in their 30s, um, and uh, so I see a lot of raw, raw raw energy, like we can do this, we can do anything.

Apoc:

Um, which is typical, which I. I was like that in my 30s because I didn't really get my ass kicked until my 40s. Um, because I, I think in my in my late 30s and 40s, I started to see my limits, the limits of my thinking, the limits of my understanding, the limits of you know that kind of energy, so there's like a mellowing that happens after that. But there's also a focusing.

Apoc:

That happens when you can no longer do everything and you can only do one thing or one or two things. You take one thing and do it well, and then you get on to the next thing.

NorCal Guy:

So I kind of see this burgeoning space of it can.

Apoc:

We can do anything, we can do everything, and I think, okay, that will eventually mellow into kind of all right. So what are we really doing? What do we?

Apoc:

really want to do, and there's so much energy and creativity in web 3. There's so much youthfulness in the positive sense that I'm hopeful that this burgeoning creativity can, over time, focus and, and certain great things will, rise to the top and really help shape culture in our world. And that's what's most exciting for me, that's why I'm in it. I think, um the answer to the answer to so many social challenges is strengthening culture, and strengthening culture on its own grounds and its own terrain. Not forcing it to comply to any ideology or any worldview or any way of thinking, but really nourishing human minds and the human soul to become itself, become what it can become, to grow itself on its own ground.

Apoc:

That is how we build a strong culture when people draw from their own sources of interest and curiosity about existence and my theory, dude is that a strong culture can rebalance the excesses in other domains of our society so we can rebalance authoritarian tendencies and we can rebalance abuses of power and violence and extraction, you know, just punishing extraction of people and resources. All of these things tend to balance out when there's a strong culture, because values shift right and we start to value each other, and we start to value timeless human experiences, and and then when cultures meet, they, they form a hybrid they, they, they uh they mix and they blend instead of fighting and going to war.

Apoc:

So I think web 3 has a role to play in all that. If we can really grow the internet culture to be kind of independent of ideology and not like just taking sides red or blue and not just bickering among ourselves, but really grow the culture, then it can be a positive force in the world.

NorCal Guy:

So to speak. Yeah, I could see that for art space in five years.

Apoc:

Well, I think a lot can happen in five years. Five years ago or even you know if you think about even 10 years ago, so many things were fundamentally different, right? So we're going through all these shifts, radical shifts like this seems like a very open decade because, at least for people in my circles, the Cold War had ended and apartheid had ended and the 90s were this open decade. And then came 9-11. And kind of a new war narrative, right right that was so tiresome to live under.

Apoc:

It's so tiresome to live under this narrative of endless war, whether it be with the soviets or with whomever, and so we're in that again, and it's just as tiresome now as it was then. So I think, when I think about NFTs and crypto art, in five years, I think much of what we value today will be completely irrelevant, because things can shift so fast. If major war breaks out in the East or in the Middle East I mean in Eastern Europe or the Middle East so many of the narratives that drive the NFT and crypto art space will just become absolutely shit-tastingly irrelevant.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah.

Apoc:

Like an ancient past of who gives a fuck about that. That said, I think there's some artists and some projects that will endure because they they uh kind of bake in values of freedom of speech and transparency and critique and, um, access, access and digital art as a medium. So I again, I see it through an opportunity. I think the opportunity is here for artists to say what you want to say and become relevant in the world.

Apoc:

That's coming because it's it's going to be changing radically, so so I don't stick with trends or hype. I do my thing because I think the message of my work will become increasingly relevant, and if it doesn't, I'm okay with that. But if, but I think it will. So I expect in five years you're going to have serious artists still, a lot of people here will still be here making art because they're serious art. A lot of collectors will still be here, but I also anticipate a growing seriousness and focus. I'd like to see and I anticipate just more serious dialogue about the art, about themes, about existence, what we're doing, state of the world, current events. So I expect it'll become quite a serious and rich and diverse ecosystem and grow up a little bit in a positive sense and be able to, you know, hold serious dialogues about what's happening in the world today.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah.

Apoc:

I think some of that's starting, but I think we have a long way to go.

NorCal Guy:

Right, you kind of touched kind of a little bit on this, but is there anything you'd like to see more of in the NFT space?

Apoc:

Yeah, I mean, this question of dialogue is really close to my heart.

Apoc:

Last year I asked my daughter, Irene, and the two of us flew down to LA and and invited Rob Ness and and Patrick Amadon and Mari to host a dialogue last year in Miami in December, and that was a prototype and it went fine it was. It ended up being more of a dive bar event, but my goal with that kind of initiative is to meet more artists and collectors and get to know them and focus on what people really care about, and I anticipate and I hope that there's more room for that in digital art, even if it's at the edges and fringes, like it has been in traditional art. There's a lot of hype and stupid stuff that goes on in contemporary art and traditional art just trends and just you know who's popular and but there's always room for more inquisitive conversation and there's artists who show up and have something to contribute to that dialogue and that's that's kind of what I want to see with with crypto art too, just um time and space to dig into the work and the the real questions that artists are bringing in their work right

Apoc:

I mean, if you look at someone like Joe Pease or Summer Wagner, there are some serious questions in their art that they're raising. I think I raised those questions and similar questions. I can think of a lot of artists. I think ACK raises great questions in his art. He's a bit tongue-in-cheek about it, but I think there's a lot of depth underneath those humorous layers. There's a lot of thinking about life and death and existence and, uh, I've had some great conversations in person with you and others about what. What drives people. But that's hard to surface when we're on crypto twitter all the time and and when we get together and it's shouting and quick and fast and you know that real depth that artists live with.

Apoc:

Um doesn't often get to come to the surface and I I think it harms the work. It doesn't. It doesn't serve the work if yeah if we artists are just in isolation, working on our thing, but we don't really get to meet each other and talk about what's really driving us and the questions that really drive us and, conversely, when we do get that opportunity, that fertilizes and nourishes the work. So I'd like to make room and be part of those kinds of inquiries and I think it would enrich the space enormously.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah, yeah, we don't really have anything like that and it's kind of I mean, yeah, it'd be nice to have something like that. I mean kind of like what you did in miami last year, um, but outside of that, I mean i't know if Twitter Spaces is the way for that, but yeah, I mean Twitter Spaces is pretty good.

Apoc:

I think if I do again, if I do another thing like we did last year, I wouldn't do it at a dive bar. In fact, I just have a long list of things to do, but on my list of things to do is to try to do another um. We called it open form. Um, to try to do another open form like, but a little bit more structured, so that it's quieter atmosphere and people can find the opportunity to dig a bit deeper into what really drives them and and share a bit about what really drives them, like cafe style, around small tables or I don't know.

Apoc:

There's lots of different ways to do this kind of thing. But yeah, I think it would help. It would help to tap the tradition of that that's been established in traditional art and contemporary art Artist talks, live conversation, people sitting on the floor at tables and talking with each other and looking at the work and, um, you know, spending time really focused on it, getting into it and and not just have loud music playing all the time and parties like that's all good, but I think we could add to our scene by having that kind of event yeah, so I'm curious your thoughts on supply and additions and one of ones, and how you kind of work it all together, your opinion on all that um, uh, I like the game.

Apoc:

I won't say that I'm great at it, but I like it. I like to play it. Um, so I've got a few things kind of cooking with my additions nothing, nothing's gone live yet, but how to um, burn or do other things with those additions so that people can get other work? Um, I try to keep addition counts relatively low. Once I gave out a free edition and for some reason it minted like 4,000. But other than that, everything is under 100. Yeah, I haven't done any editions in a while. It's something I'd like to do more of. I started a collection called the Art Cards and did some myself, but did some cool collaborations with Jake the D-Gen and Robness and Mitch Tom and I'd like to do some more of those Art Cards.

Apoc:

I think it's a fun way to engage the community and work with other artists, good to get to know them and hang out. We launched the influx with an addition with Click Create, which ended up being great. I'm so glad there's 128 editions of Carbon Cop out there. I think it's a great piece. I think it's the kind of a spark that starts the whole story of the influx, and so it's great that it's an addition and the whole community can kind of have that.

Apoc:

Um, I'm not too fussed about supply. I, I know that there's. I mean, I appreciate, like anyone, the financial dimensions of our game here. But I all, as an artist and a culture builder, one of my mantras is there's no such thing as too much great art. So I've seen some artists whom I know and respect and really love as friends kind of coach other artists to not overdo it on supply, and I think there's some wisdom there. Overdo it on supply, and I think there's some wisdom there. But at the same time life goes fast and the years pass and this is your, this is your chance, right? So I'm I've had a good, fruitful conversation with Amadon on this. We both agree that make as much art as you can and make judiciously.

Apoc:

Now I'm about to break my own rule with that, because the influx is going to have 333 one of ones. But I think that's. I think that's great. I think it's great to have rules and then break them and bend them. I think that the influx are going to be great pieces. They're going to be canonical in the APOC world and in five years that'll be super clear that you know. These 333 pieces were very special and unique in the space and the scene. So I'm going into this knowing that not everybody is going to get that right away. Right, I've told a few collectors and they're like 333, that's way too many.

Apoc:

And I'm just like you know that's not. Sometimes the vision for the art and the art project clashes with what collectors think is good for the numbers Right Right. And in that case you just have to follow. I follow the good for the numbers Right, right, and in that case you just have to follow. I follow the vision for the art.

NorCal Guy:

That makes sense. That's what you got to do. You got to stick to you, to your voice and how you want to accomplish that ultimately.

Apoc:

Yeah, I have a mission and a message, and so I design projects to get that across.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah, Now.

Apoc:

I also design projects so that I can feed my family and make a living and pay off debt, like everybody. But I tell you dude every if you want to do something substantial, it's going to be a risk.

NorCal Guy:

The only way you don't take a risk is it's going to be a risk.

Apoc:

The only way you don't take a risk is by doing something that's not substantial. So making a contribution, making a name for ourselves, we've had to take risks and in retrospect it looks like like oh, that wasn't that risky because it paid off right but when I released the 49 meetings, I had no idea if anybody was going to be interested.

Apoc:

I had no idea if anyone, if anyone, was going to buy. And the same with the additions, the same with the insights and the burdens and all these things that I've done and and the same is true of influx. And every time I'm leveling up, every time I'm pushing myself to my limit. The influx is an incredibly ambitious, difficult, complex undertaking. I can't even the detail and the moving parts here is unlike anything I've ever seen. But that's how we grow. So I'm doing it even if nobody. I mean God willing.

NorCal Guy:

I hope people notice and appreciate it, but I'm kind of going to do it, no matter what the outcome is. Yeah, Do you have a piece of advice that you kind of live by, a mantra that kind of goes through your head?

Apoc:

Yeah, um, I have a few, um, but I thought, about this question and, um, the one I want to share is something my dad told me when I turned 40, I asked him he he was. He was about 70. I said, looking back on your life, think back to those years between when you turned 40 and now, and what piece of advice would you give me as I turned 40? And he said something that really struck me. I'll never forget it.

Apoc:

Um, he said fulfill your creative potential, because that's one thing I did not do, because that's one thing I did not do and I took this, the road that I thought was safer at the time. And if I had, if I had to do it again, I would not have done that.

Apoc:

I would have taken the creative road, because in fact I think that would have been better on all accounts mm-hmm so I was already on that path but to get and he's always, he's always supported me or while I was alive. But when I heard that I was like you know, this is not something to take lightly. This is not something that's easy to do. This is not something that you can do later. You can just wait and kind of have fun now and tap your creative potential later. It's more like building a building or it's like building a pyramid. It's like this is not a small effort. This is a monumental effort to to tap your real creative potential and to realize it.

Apoc:

So, whatever you're doing, if you're an artist, like, start now and take it seriously and yeah, give yourself a lot of slack and and give yourself a lot of room for error, but, like, do it and learn to strengthen your resolve and your will so that you do it above, like, almost above all other things.

Apoc:

I would just have one caveat, which is the other piece of advice that I received was from my mentor, who at one point he point he said, you know, eventually you grow up and you realize that, um, all the, all the things that you thought really mattered mattered less than the productive work of self-transformation. So it was like he always kind of laughed at me because I was so ambitious and so full of all the things that I would do, because he had lived that life and he had finally kind of matured to a space where he just wanted to do his work and help other people and he was like, yeah, you know, um, do everything you can, but you know when, when, when you get to a certain stage, um, you realize that you can't tolerate yourself who you are you don't.

Apoc:

You want to be something different. You want to transform. All humans want to transform. All humans want to be something else. They want to become something else, and that that really struck me. We're all trying to transform, we're all trying to be something else and go through some sort of metamorphosis. So he was like do it, you know, work on, become who you want to become and keep going because there's no upper limit. So that's what's been most significant for me. My life's really focused on my own metamorphosis to become a creative person in service of my mission.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah, that's good. Do you have advice for artists joining this space?

Apoc:

I guess my biggest piece of advice is to play a long game.

NorCal Guy:

I mean yeah, you know like, yeah, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, I think it should definitely be approached that way. Um many have approached it as like just get as much as you can extractive, but uh, the long game, I think, is definitely where you should focus, I agree.

Apoc:

Yeah, I mean I was up in the redwoods last week visiting a farm that does all these cool things with water and vortexes and stuff like that, and he told a story. The farmer told a story about a ridge that used to be covered with old growth redwoods, like thousands of year old trees, yeah and some guy came into town, bought the rights and, on behalf of the logging company, cut down all the old growth like clear cut the entire ridge 30, 40 years ago, because it was like $2 billion of redwood back then and then sold the land.

Apoc:

So they come in, they destroy the entire landscape for money and then they leave other people to clean it up. And I just think, man, that's not the way. I think it's tempting to come in and extract everything, but it's ultimately destructive to self and other and ecosystem and community. It's much better to come in and build something of value and it's much harder. But if you're really joining the crypto art space, if I were mentoring someone who was joining the crypto art space Guy, I would say who are you really? What do you actually want to do? And I would point to like 10 artists and say look at how serious they take their work. That's you. That's what you need to do while you join this space.

Apoc:

If you want to be taken seriously, if you want to really build something of value, what are you doing? Actually, it can be anything. If you dig deep enough, it's going to be good. But who are you, aside from the trend or the hype, or your insecurities or your desires or your vanity, your ambition, your shallow sense of yourself, your identity, your race, your skin, your gender, your nationality, like? Put all that aside, who are you as an individual, and where's your heart, mind and soul? And let's unpack that and let's make that a world, because that's what other people are going to resonate with that's what's actually going to tap the universal right.

NorCal Guy:

I like that, so kind of switching it up a little bit. If you were an animal, what would you be and why?

Apoc:

an eagle okay uh, I would be an eagle because, um, I'd like to see everything at once and I I would love to fly. I think birds fly, for I go to the beach a lot because I live near the beach.

Apoc:

The other day I was at the beach and I saw this. I don't know what a group of pelicans was called there's probably a technical name for it but it was like a bunch of pelicans flying around and they were all looking for the thermals to ride. They were just up there having fun and an eagle being able to see everything at once. I just think that would be such a trip like if you could see clearly and in detail the entire world uh, so yeah plus, they're just such they're such cool birds, so big, and I don't know.

Apoc:

You've probably seen them in person, right?

NorCal Guy:

yeah, I mean not up close, but yes, I mean besides the zoo. But yeah, I have seen them out in in the wild. Yeah, out in the wild, and when you've seen them out in the wild, they're otherworldly like a bald eagle or a golden eagle, I don't care what you see they're, they're like they're like griffins, they're like mythical beasts. Yeah, they are so cool, yeah so if you could live or move anywhere, where would you live and why?

Apoc:

uh, that's a great question. So for a long, long time I wanted to live in Europe because I love the culture of, I just love the cathedrals and the old paintings and serious amount of art there. But in the last but since COVID, I gave up on that. I was like you know what Europe has fallen?

Apoc:

Europe is falling and I have some very close friends and one of my mentors is in Europe. He's a freaking genius, this guy, and of course he saw what was happening with COVID and he was like look we're looking to America to protect freedom of speech and mind. So now I'm pretty happy living on the west coast. Um, I want to start the school so. So my family and I are are building a project of starting a new kind of black mountain college.

Apoc:

Black mountain was a school in america from 1933 to 1956 in the hills of north carolina, and it ended up being a very influential art school.

Apoc:

Okay, but they focused on creativity at the center of all the disciplines okay, and I've thought about this for like 30 years, and so now I'm finally actually got a working group and got a partner and a few partners and a piece of land in our sights and we're about to start raising capital for that and that's out here on the West Coast. It's beautiful, it's otherworldly in terms of the nature. It's otherworldly in terms of the nature, yeah, um, it's so. It's so welcoming and so calming to the nerves to be near the beach or in the redwoods or out on the grassy hills. It is really, it is really like Tolkien's world, um, you know, without the snow covered mountains in the distance, but you get this endless, this endless ocean.

Apoc:

Uh, so that's my favorite place it's just a little further out than where I live now no, I mean, that makes sense.

NorCal Guy:

It's beautiful over there, hey yeah it is nice. So yeah, do you have any questions for me?

Apoc:

yeah, I do um. So I have a couple questions. Number one how has your, uh, our education grown in the last few years?

NorCal Guy:

uh, you know that's interesting.

NorCal Guy:

Um, I guess it's more like learning different techniques from different.

NorCal Guy:

Like when you are I'm not a master, but when you talk to someone that it has mastered their craft, they can easily tell like kind of what has gone into this piece of someone else or something, um the technical aspects of it, not necessarily like the message of the piece and so to be able to kind of start to discern like potential effort being put in, because initially in this space there's, you know, people are coming at, especially in like 21, all this artists popping up. Are they legit? Are they not try and do research here and there and then learning like some technical background of like how it's done and like that kind of helps with like figuring out, okay, is this person good at what they do? Um, or is this just like a couple steps beyond tutorial type of thing, and I guess that's that applies to maybe more 3D-ish art or maybe potentially animations, not necessarily paintings Identifying what potentially has more skill behind it initially, yeah, and my second question for you is how do you think of substance in art?

NorCal Guy:

Like a message behind the piece type of thing.

Apoc:

Yeah, depth substance meaning. All these are synonyms in this context.

NorCal Guy:

It's definitely well. I don't know if it is overlooked, but it kind of feels like it's overlooked in this space. It's very, cause this space is such a what's hot. The second type of thing I think it's great and definitely I have, you know, passed on pieces that I have haven't liked the message particularly, or like something was dark about it or and I was like, yeah, I'm gonna pass on this because it's not my thing. You know that can be someone else's thing. So I think it's good. I think it's great to have a message. I don't know if I'm I won't necessarily pass on a piece if it doesn't have a message.

Apoc:

I mean, I like aesthetically pleasing things a lot as well um, so I have a third question for you, but I want to, I think I want to tell you about my project first.

NorCal Guy:

All right, so let's hear about any projects you're working on, things you'd like to discuss about your current art adventures.

Apoc:

Yeah, yeah, so, um. So, right now, about to release chapter two of influx, um, chapter one is called the origins. There are 31 of ones and, um, I think something between 18 and 20 I can't remember have been collected. So there's 10 more there, so I'm gonna actively start. I haven't really started hunting, like looking for collectors, like asking my existing collectors to become stewards or become origins collectors, but, um, the origins collectors are what I call stewards because they are, um, they have been so helpful in me realizing this project, so we released Carbon Cop as an addition with Click Create a year ago.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah.

Apoc:

And the last year of selling these one-of-ones just by showing them on Twitter and people DM me and we make a deal and they sell. They've sold for the first few, sold for around one and most of them have sold for one and a half.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah.

Apoc:

And that's what's kept the studio and the family afloat for the last year. And so these collectors have essentially been patrons to keep the studio afloat. So I call them stewards because they really have been instrumental in helping realize this project. So, number one, I'm going to now find my last ten stewards, and the stewards as a whole will receive a piece from chapter two. So every origin from chapter one has a character arc. And so what I mean by that?

Apoc:

If, like, if you think of, uh, any great story like harry potter or lord of the rings or shoot, anything in the bible, like any great story that you can think of, there's multiple characters and they have character arcs, they all experience some kind of conflict and some kind of transformation, some sort of development, um, or a failure, or or both. And so we we've kind of thought about influx in the same way, with this sort of cast of characters who appear in each chapter in different forms. So so your piece, for example, seeker, she appears in chapter two, the ordeal, in another form, and in Chapter 3, the oversoul, she'll appear in another form.

NorCal Guy:

So that's what I'm doing right now.

Apoc:

I'm preparing to launch Chapter 2 and about to start looking for my last 10 stewards, but the influx as a whole um began with chapter three, the oversoul okay, which is? 144 one of ones, and I started making them in 2021. When everyone was talking about community and all these 10,000 PFP projects were coming out, I thought, well, a community isn't really a community unless it sticks together through thick and thin. There has to be something at stake, there has to be something hard.

NorCal Guy:

What is a community?

Apoc:

I started thinking about what is a community, and so I decided well, I'm just going to I'm actually going to paint a series of portraits that reflect this space. I'm going to make a series of portraits of people here which I kind of lost interest in that and started making a different kind of series of portraits. In short, it became this kind of world.

Apoc:

Because I realized as I was painting them. By painting I mean physically painting. That's part of my process. I use the physical paintings as inputs and then I animate the works digitally. It's a whole process. But as I was painting them, I had to really think about each one as a being, with a story Like is this a human, is this a god, is this a demon? Is this some sort of thing that possesses? Is this part of me? Is this a benevolent force? And so all these more existential, philosophical questions kind of came alive in the studio. And then, three years later, it's 333, one of ones. And so altogether I think of the influx as this world of beings who are caught up in what I call the vertical war.

Apoc:

The vertical war is invisible because it's not a horizontal war like between armies or between factions, or between red and blue or between neighbors. But all those are horizontal wars because they take place on the horizontal plane of the ground where people walk around. The vertical war is between good and evil, it's between the archetypal forces of the world, it's between the old gods and new gods. It's sort of a spiritual battle. In my imagination it's the way I think about life is that people are kind of caught up in a battle for the future. So as the pandemic was happening and I saw what I thought was a bunch of lies coming through the government and the official media channels, I just saw lie after lie after lie and I thought it was lies because, having worked in the multi-stakeholder field with all these organizations, I know what it takes to get even 10 organizations to agree on an agenda or talking points.

NorCal Guy:

It takes a year of work.

Apoc:

Yeah, because every institution in every country and every hierarchy of people has its own identity and mission, and you have people who have egos and they're there's infighting. You don't. You don't magically get hundreds of countries or hundreds of organizations to agree something spontaneously. So I was wondering from the very beginning, like what the fuck is going on? No way to do this without, without plans, so anyway that was just me, dude.

NorCal Guy:

I just didn't buy it.

Apoc:

I was like whatever the fuck this is we're not, we're not, we're not doing this yeah as a family like no, um, I. And I tried to tell people like don't, don't believe the hype, just wait, just wait. Whatever this is, I don't believe it's good. So what flooded my work was these pictures of good and evil, because how does evil work? Evil?

NorCal Guy:

works through lies Right Right.

Apoc:

That's how evil works in the world Lies violence, corruption, manipulation. So much of it is lies. So not to get too philosophical or spiritual on you, but these were the thoughts that were in my mind as I started to influx. Like, this is what we're seeing in our time is a battle for the truth and a battle for the future and a battle for the mind. A battle for the truth and a battle for the future and a battle for the mind.

Apoc:

And so the vertical war became kind of a story of humanity caught up in this battle and you can think about a lot of different ways freedom versus authoritarianism, borders and migration and war, like I don't know. These are all thoughts that I think of. So these 333 portraits kind of picture different beings with different intentions, so warlords and mad scientists and liars and manipulators and just ordinary people caught up in it, people suffering from grief or loss or madness, or also people breaking through and transforming and finding joy and happiness and laughter, and also beings like sorcerers and madonnasnas and angels, and just I just let my imagination kind of run freely, uh-huh, um, and made this whole cast of characters, some of whom are suffering and some of whom are serving evil, some of whom are consciously doing good and some of whom are serving good, and they're just the whole spectrum.

Apoc:

So there's some secrets to the oversaw, which I won't reveal now, but it is. I will say there's nothing, there's nothing like it that exists. Yet this is. This is a completely unique project, as far far as I'm aware, in crypto art.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah, yeah.

Apoc:

Not just because there's so many pieces. That's part of it, but there's other things that make it what it is that no one's done before, so it's fully consuming. It's fully consuming, it's fully involving. I'm so focused making it that I can't adequately tell the story, so my marketing is terrible. I mean it's okay when I do it, but it's not what it needs to be to convey what I've got going on Right.

NorCal Guy:

Convey what I've got going on.

Apoc:

So that's what I'm working on. That's what the studio is working on. I've got my older daughter is my main assistant, my younger daughter sometimes help. We've hired in other assistants from outside and it's like 10 times more work than I thought it would be, but it's really fucking cool.

NorCal Guy:

I'm really excited about it. Yeah, 10 times more work than I thought it would be, but it's. It's really fucking cool. I'm really excited about it. Yeah, no, you definitely. Um, I guess, since it was a year ago since we started talking in, uh, since you did the job for click, create and beyond, um, you've definitely have a passion about it and a love for it, and that is definitely. Uh can tell that, yeah.

Apoc:

I just need to spread that passion and love to more people so that more people are like oh shit, this is so cool. Um, I'm kind of getting there, but I'm I'm a little bit understated, I think.

NorCal Guy:

Hmm, sure, just a little bit, but that's all right. I mean, that's you, though, that's you, you're authentic. Yeah, cool, did you have another question after that?

Apoc:

So my question, my question for you is um, I want you to be honest, positive and negative, like what do you think and see when you see my work and me? How does apocalypse fit into our scene in your mind? Positive and negative or neutral, just whatever you can share and be honest. You can always edit later, but I'm genuinely interested in how you see my studio, because I'm looking for room, I'm looking for where I can improve potentially. I'm not looking for affirmation, but um, but I'd like to know positive and you know, what should I keep doing? What should I change?

NorCal Guy:

Or what should I improve? Oh well, I mean, like your project is different, definitely different than anything in the space currently. I can't, nothing comes to mind that's doing something on a scale that you are doing. That's, I mean. The hard part is and what and many struggle with this is getting that champion multiple champions on your side to chat and talk about this project, Because everyone you know has their own thing that they want to talk about. And that's the hard part Is getting the word out. I don't know if I'm the right guy to ask, Just because I don't scroll the timeline much, but I don't feel like I see your stuff out there very much, To be honest, and I don't know, um, the best way to change that. Whether it's reply guying some or not, I don't know, just posting it out there.

NorCal Guy:

I have no idea what the solution is Getting more involved with the project, or maybe you know, maybe I'm just throwing this out there because I have no idea Maybe there's some artists that want to contribute characters, their own version of a character, want to contribute characters, their own version of a character, or maybe you have, I don't know, some sort of derivative of this or something I don't know. But then you're expanding it a little bit, which is not necessarily a bad thing. But if you've got more people that want to be a part of this, then it could, you know, grow. And then you have people that are your fans, or, or however you want to call them, stewards um, to be talking about it more.

Apoc:

Yeah, good Thanks, dude. Yeah, I've had that feedback a lot that people just don't see the work Friends, people that follow and like me and respect me.

Apoc:

So I'm trying to tweet more and trying to romance the algorithm because I think the algorithm my theory is that the algorithm shows you posts from accounts that are bigger or the same size than yours. So I'm not sure how the algorithm works just in terms of follower counts. I really don't know, but I've had a lot of people tell me I just don't see the work. So I feel like I'm thinking I tweet too much, but I keep hearing that I'm not tweeting enough or not replying enough or not doing enough spaces.

NorCal Guy:

So it's good input, thanks well, apoc I, I would like to just thank you for telling me about your story, going in depth a little bit about yourself and um, learning more about you, how you got to where you were and and and getting this dream out there, this um fulfilling that, and uh, I really appreciate your time today and I hope to either see you in Marfa or Miami this year.

Apoc:

Hey man, thank you. Thanks for having me on, appreciate your questions and appreciate um your being a steward and your collecting and just your friendship and tracking with you these last couple years and look forward to more.

NorCal Guy:

NorCalGuy.