NorCal and Shill

How Joey L. Balances Personal Projects with Commercial Success

• NorCal Guy • Season 1 • Episode 176

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Join us for an insightful exploration with photographer Joey L., who takes us on a captivating journey through his artistic evolution. From an early passion for toy dinosaurs that ignited his creativity to becoming a renowned figure in the photography world, Joey shares the pivotal experiences that shaped his career. With clients such as Jennifer Lawrence and Robert De Niro, he illustrates the delicate balance between commercial success and personal expression in art.

In this episode, we dive deep into the complexities of NFTs, hear Joey's candid thoughts on the emerging digital asset landscape, and understand the significance of fostering personal connections when creating impactful images. Through his storytelling, Joey emphasizes the importance of following one’s long-term vision in an ever-changing industry filled with rapid trends.

As he shares valuable advice for aspiring artists looking to enter the NFT space, listeners are encouraged to appreciate their journey while remaining true to themselves. Joey's humble yet inspiring perspective makes this episode a treasure trove of insights for anyone passionate about art and photography. Don't miss out—tune in to discover what it truly means to forge a unique path in the world of creativity and witness how the art community continues to evolve.

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Joey L:

Who is this? Who is this guy?

NorCal Guy:

Who is this guy? Who is this guy? Who is this guy? Who is this guy? Norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal and chill podcast Show.

Joey L:

It's chill time, norcal and chill podcast. What the sh.

NorCal Guy:

What the sh? Nor hey. Everyone, welcome to this next episode of NorCal and Shill. Today's guest is Joey L. Joey is a Canadian-born photographer and director based in Brooklyn, New York, whose work has been consistently sought out by prominent advertising clients and features recognizable faces such as Robert De Niro and Jennifer Lawrence. He is known for his curiosity for different ways of living, as showcased in his Holy Men series and annual pilgrimage to document Halloween in Brooklyn. Joey maintains a quirky web series called Dudes with Cameras and believes that personal connection to the subjects and client is key to making an image resonate. He recently traveled to the Kurdish regions of Iraq and Syria to document the volunteer fighters of the PKK and YPG in his new series, guerrilla Fighters of Kurdistan. Joey has been listed as one of the most influential photographers on social media and has been named one of the 30 photographers under 30 to watch by Complex Magazine. Everybody, please welcome Joey. Hey, joey, Welcome to the podcast. How are you doing?

Joey L:

today. Hey, I'm doing very good. My day was going quite normally and then I received a bid, so now everything seems more sunny and rosy than it was five minutes ago.

NorCal Guy:

That's awesome, congrats on that I mean definitely puts a more positive spin on the day.

Joey L:

It's like, oh, I suddenly believe in this stuff again.

NorCal Guy:

It's not a scam anymore. Yeah, yeah. No, I know I get that Like with my that ClickMint Pass project that I have the like instant camera, digital camera thing. Whenever like I post it. I'm like because I always started at 0.069 and then it's always fun to watch it ramp up and you're like, oh okay, good, it's doing all right so far.

NorCal Guy:

Increase your conviction and everything that you've poured your soul into the last couple years right, right and man, I just gotta give it to the artist because I mean that's hard, especially when you're putting all day and you're like trying to make it as your primary, and that's a lot of work, man, it's rough. So do you have a hardware wallet?

Joey L:

I do have a hardware wallet. Our family uses a bunch of Ledger Nanos and I always thought it would be a very nice fashion accessory, like how they bling it out, but at the same time you don't want to get that thing stolen, so it's probably good not to flaunt it.

NorCal Guy:

You just wear a blank one, you just buy one for the necklace.

Joey L:

Kind of like to pretend that that's your one and then your other one is in a very obvious place. Yeah, that's a good idea.

NorCal Guy:

Okay, I'm gonna start doing that yeah, I mean it's technically a cheap, a relative.

Joey L:

If you're looking at like decorating your your necklace, it's relatively cheap token whatever, if no one knows what's inside of it, then it's cheap, but if not it could look expensive. I like that.

NorCal Guy:

That's a relatively cheap token If no one knows what's inside of it, then it's cheap, but if not, it could look expensive. I like that. That's a good piece of bling. Yeah, that's a good idea. What were your first thoughts when you heard about NFTs?

Joey L:

My first thoughts when I first heard of NFTs. Did you by any chance see the photo that I took of Sam Spratt's Council of Lucy? It's a group shot of everyone who went to his event. We're all wearing like very sinister Lucy masks and there's kind of an orb on the table. It kind of looks like the like Trump, saudi foreign minister, c-sci like photo where they're touching the evil orb.

Joey L:

I thought the NFT space was kind of like that, because I was like late 2020, early 2021. Me, my wife Kia and Sam Spratt were all looking at the space trying to figure it out, like on Clubhouse, and looking at like all these collector's walls that had like just thousands of these things inside them and we're like what the hell? What is this? And we honestly thought there was some kind of dark council. So when we took that photo, we tried to emanate what other people thought of it so that we could create rumors. But that's honestly what I thought it was. And then I realized that it's actually not that, or maybe it is, and I haven't been properly inducted into the real council yet.

NorCal Guy:

Right, I mean probably me, a little of both, probably.

Joey L:

Yeah, there's like levels to this thing. That's the first dark council, right.

NorCal Guy:

Right. What brought you to photography?

Joey L:

So I've actually been a photographer since I was seven years old. I didn't go to college or university, in fact, I barely finished high school. My first art was taking photos of my toy dinosaurs and dioramas. I had a website called Dino-rama and I would collect Jurassic Park toys with kids online and share our little setups and that's how I learned photography and it's how I learned Photoshop.

Joey L:

And then, later on, when I was a emo teenager, I used to get hired to take different bands' album packaging for MySpace and album artwork. So I used to go on tour with Screamo bands across Europe and across America and that's why I barely finished high school, but I was always working on being a photographer and then that built my first portfolio of work that were these interesting characters. Then I started getting hired to do different movie posters and stuff of movie characters, because my portfolio looked like an eclectic bunch of weirdos. So one of my first movie posters was Twilight and it looked very emo and at the same time, I always did my personal fine artwork. So when I started making money as a photographer, that's what I spent it on is doing my own personal projects. So that's where all the books and exhibitions and things come from.

NorCal Guy:

Wow.

Joey L:

That's an impressive journey. Well, I've never done any other job, so I'm like past the point of this thing working out or not. It's like all the bridges behind me are burned, so there's only forward left to go.

NorCal Guy:

Perfect, perfect, perfect. I mean, I feel like that answers the next question, which is what jobs have you done other than being an artist, because it sounds like, from the get go, you've just been doing art. Yeah, I've been very lucky.

Joey L:

Yeah, like I've been honestly very blessed. A lot of the NFT space I found like complains about commercial work, but really I've been really blessed to have very interesting clients and cool commissions from different entities and I say like, as long as I'm doing my own style on set, it's kind of like operating on steroids. So, for example, one of the shoots I did a few years ago was this agricultural project around the whole world, many different countries, and it was just the same as shooting my personal work, except we had like a lot of production behind it so we could accomplish a lot in a short amount of time. So when I'm, the only difference between that and my personal work is I have more time and less budget, right. So it's like the work should just kind of blend together and if you see it on my website, you should know what's commissioned and what's not. I like to just be very heavy handed with my work, as long as people know that it comes from me.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah, no, I like that. That's awesome. I like definitely knowing who it is for sure.

Joey L:

Yeah, yeah, that's one of the things that that is still the kind of art that I like. It's not necessarily someone who photographs the same way I do, but someone who has their own very distinct vision, and of course it can evolve over time, should change and get better and better. But just I love artists that I can instantly recognize.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah, no, I like that too. It's good to have that distinct style yourself your name on it. So if you were an animal, what would you be and why?

Joey L:

I was trying to think of this question. Well, my name is Joey, so I guess I'd be like a baby kangaroo. But one of the things that I'm notorious for is hoarding. So I have all this work that I haven't minted. That's kind of like I'm afraid to release it, or it's just not right, or I save it for a larger collection. So I guess I'd be a squirrel, some kind of kangaroo slash squirrel, so some kind of mammal Okay, storing different nuts for the winter. But yeah, I really suffered with that question, but I do appreciate it.

NorCal Guy:

Do you have a favorite food?

Joey L:

My favorite food is ethiopian food, and that's what first got me addicted to traveling to the country 13 years ago, until I ended up staying there just to continue eating that food. So ethiopian cuisine is is the best thing we have it at home every day. Nice, living the dream. Sometimes it feels that way.

NorCal Guy:

That's that's good, that's good man. What's the best piece of advice? You've been given.

Joey L:

The best piece of advice I've been given is probably an amalgamation of the similar points, and that is if you look at another person's success and try to emulate them, usually it's not going to work because that path was very specific for them. That's especially true when it comes to artists. In a constantly changing industry, the path that a photographer would have taken in a generation before mine simply doesn't exist. So you have to look at their success and just appreciate it as being theirs. But you really have to find your own path, and then other people will eventually look at you and wonder how you did it. But there are core truths to what works and what doesn't work. But simply a point A to point B to point C doesn't work in this industry, especially now that everything's changed the last few years. So the best advice I was being given was to just keep your head down and do your own thing best, and don't look to try to get into a group or circle friends of someone else, but try to form your own around you.

NorCal Guy:

No, I like that a lot. I think that there's no like definite way. 80% of it is grinding and doing yeah, actually going through with what you said you're going to do.

Joey L:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and just kind of a slow and steady pace, you know, building slowly and people will eventually figure it out.

Joey L:

Maybe you'd be undervalued at the starting, but if you just kind of, there's a lot of merit of people who have just been doing things for a really long time. People trust them, people believe in them, but you as yourself, you also learn your own structure. So it's just like doing the same thing for a really, really long time is, you know, sometimes surprising to people? Because we live in such a disposable culture where it's like people just try things for a year and there's no mastery really. So it's like I think, as long as you just do what you do best for a really long time, you'll figure it out. Yeah, and I I have to remind myself this all the time. By the way, it's not something that I just believe right, it's like you have to constantly remind yourself there and not let your ego get in the way of, like success of other people, or what's this, what's this, what's right, what's wrong. It's just something you have to like live by no, that's really true.

NorCal Guy:

It's, it's hard, it's hard, it's hard to do. That's why it's like a grind man and yeah, with this podcast, you know, it's just, I feel the same thing.

Joey L:

I'm like oh, another, another sometimes did you say that to yourself before you called me. Oh god, this fucking, this fucking I'm another one of these photographer assholes. Oh fuck. I got to hear his theory on life, oh great. Oh no his favorite food is from somewhere far away. Of course it is.

NorCal Guy:

Well, no, not specifically. I enjoy actually all the interviews, the one-on-one with everybody. It's just like you know. You're like damn, I wish it was more successful sometimes. But you know everybody. But it's just like you know, you're like damn, I wish it was more successful sometimes. But you know, sometimes it's just the grind and you're like I think you strike me as someone very successful well, thank you, yeah, I don't know.

NorCal Guy:

I think it is, it's fine, it's, it is successful. But you know, you know you're always there, always that comparison thing out there, and you're always like, how can I make it better, how can I do better? Yeah, and you know, the artists definitely feel that more than I do, like I'm not dependent on, on this right I'm doing it for fun, right?

Joey L:

I would. I would be interested to see something of your work, of that you're actually dependent on, if this is what you do for fun seems like it seems like a lot here.

NorCal Guy:

Do you have advice for artists joining the nft space?

Joey L:

I do have advice for artists joining the nft space, and that is you really need to zoom out and take a long-term vision and understand that, first and foremost, you're an artist and this is a new, exciting extension into the art world or into the photography world in my case and there's always this temptation to do every trend and to blow up really fast, and what we've seen is most of the people who have done that, their careers last maybe one or two years and then after that they have a really hard time because they simply exploded and did every trend too fast and then after that it's very tough for them to make a living, to sell their work, or they might just be successful but be completely burnt out, and none of those outcomes are good.

Joey L:

So my advice is the NFT space. Of course there's a lot trends that can help you if you have work that's going to fit inside that and just happens to work out, but if not, it's just kind of like my other point. A slow and steady approach over several years into a lifetime is a much better approach and more healthy approach for you, but also something that's going to yield better results, even financially, for you as well. So, like I said, I've been doing this since I was seven years old, when I first started working as a photographer. It was the last financial crisis. Now I see another financial crisis and it's kind of all the same thing again, but with new bells and whistles. The NFT space is one of those things. I think it's incredibly exciting and a new time for artists.

NorCal Guy:

But don't get lost in this sauce of what you actually became an artist for. Yeah, that's hard. You got to stay focused and always come back to what you why.

Joey L:

Yeah, why? Why? Because, even when you ask yourself why, when you do it, it's even self-serving. Because you can inspire a lot of people and you can surround yourself with very positive, good people. If you're doing something that has a real vision or a real focus, people are going to naturally gravitate to the work. If things, things are like very quick, trendy things, it'll definitely work for that time, but then it's going to be over and people become artists to escape a regular life, like I did, to run away from something or just to share the vision that they have with the world. So I think that should be the starting point, and the rest is too zoomed in, right. You have to like, really take a zoomed out long-term view. Is this something that I'm going to dedicate my entire human life to?

Joey L:

right, it's a good question it is a good question for everyone to think about.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah, yeah yeah, so I feel like I already know the answer to this one, oh just based on earlier conversation, okay you know it's part. It's a question here and it's if you could live or move anywhere where would you live?

Joey L:

what do you? What do you think? My answer is ethiopia, yeah, but I did that already, so I would have to choose a new place.

NorCal Guy:

You have to do okay, because you're not living there now. Right, I spent. I spent many years there.

Joey L:

I spent many years there. I spent many years in new york to choose a new place. I would love to relocate our family to india for a few years. I think that could be nice, okay, yeah, yeah, I was really fortunate to do some work for the kerala government to revive their tourism industry. The campaign was called human by nature and, like I really fell in love with the place and I could see you know, doing like a long-term project out there and resettling out there for a few years if it came, if it came to be india's kind of the magical place for me, and also many other photographers have been inspired. So I think that's that's my answer for you, okay no, no, I like it.

NorCal Guy:

It's different than I thought like. There is such a love for Ethiopia there is. That was, I mean it still is. But I thought that would be the place.

Joey L:

Yeah, I mean, we have our house there, but I tried to think of something new for you. Because, every Twitter space. I'm talking about how much I love Ethiopia.

NorCal Guy:

But I thought I'd share some love. Do you have any questions for me?

Joey L:

I do. So I was wondering your take on institutions entering the NFT space, and this is something that we were talking about on the rooftop that night in Miami, but a lot of people ask round table for artists. But I was wondering for you as a collector, what is the, what is the proper way that a kind of a institution like a Christie's, sotheby's, a museum and so on could properly enter the NFT space and not screw it up and not be extractive but bring something new to it. That's my big, big, big, big question for you, because I've heard everything what artists have to say and that's important and I agree, but I want to hear it from a collector.

NorCal Guy:

I mean, I guess it'd be what they're the best at and the flip side. I don't know what exactly they're doing. I haven't looked into it at all, but what I would say would be like education for their collectors that they currently have, Like they have regulars, and so it'd be like hey, you know 100, once in a while, like hey, I know what you like, you know, and there may not be much crossover between what they like and what this world is bringing, but potentially there might be some similarities here and there. And throwing them some softballs, like hey, here's something, some education about this space. It's going to be education. I think they already have their platform and how that works and everything. I mean. Maybe potentially it goes a little differently. Maybe they start allowing anons to do stuff as far as auction, bidding and whatnot, but I think it's going to be educational. They have to be educational to their current collectors or current clientele.

Joey L:

Yeah, that's very good advice.

NorCal Guy:

I agree completely yeah yeah, I mean, it's just. This is a much different space and it takes a lot to you know for that, which I think I think it was patrick albanon I was talking to in. Like the demographic right now for the art trends is like 60, 80 years old, 80 year old and so it's gonna and that's like completely like. Even me it was hard to like wrap my head around digital tokens, so it could be a generational thing, but education would help a lot with that coming in sooner right, see a lot of those collectors who buy things at christie's.

Joey L:

They go straight into storage anyway. Right, it's not something that they might not even put on their wall. So if those institutions got into the custody business and offered a certificate and some insurance to the collector that said, you know this thing is going to be safe with us, I think like that could be a big part of the education of it is what does this thing mean? Right, it's a better certificate than most of what they're buying. And then, like paying yearly for storage for work of art, I can see it coming. I think it's going to take longer than what most people think. It's not like the masses are going to enter suddenly one year, but it's going to be a slow drip. But that's super interesting to me. That, like you kind of don't care or don't know, because you're also seeing the space, for what it is is something completely new and it's like, do we even need those people to enter? Maybe, maybe not. Maybe we can make our own little world here. It would help, but maybe it's not necessary.

NorCal Guy:

Also, yeah, maybe talked about the storage and everything that you said. It'd be interesting because these auction houses have connections. If they could, it'd be kind of like pitching as an investment but like, hey, you know, buy this digital work and we'll be having it, you know, shown around the country in these different museums. Like it's digital, it's easy to move, yeah to, from one museum to another and, you know, you maybe get a little cut from the museum for showing it there or something I don't know.

Joey L:

Something around those lines would be kind of cool there's a lot of creative deal making that museums make, and that's that could work for sure, I mean, they got the connections they should.

NorCal Guy:

I mean I would think they have the connections to make it work, so something along that, and their collectors would be like, well, you know, it's relatively affordable, these digital assets compared to potentially some of the work that they're buying. Why not diversify a little?

Joey L:

bit. Yeah, like coinbase does custody for the big companies. I think they hold tesla's Bitcoin in a kind of like a private custody, like just for them. I'm sure these big museum collections or Christie is the same way that they have relationships with warehouses and storage could make that a big part of their business and it's already proven that, like many great artists, their work in the NFT space holds value or goes up. It's the same as the traditional art market, like that's where I come from, that kind of stuff and like selling books and things and it's like all this stuff is such a blessing not to have to like release a book and ship out 700 signed copies and then, have you know, 10 of them come back to you because someone wasn't there to receive it. It's a, it's a big, it's a big headache, so great. Yeah, I think that's a very interesting point you made any any other questions?

Joey L:

what do you hope to achieve with your podcast not just this one, but in general, like what's your, because I understand you come from web 2.0, a little place that we've heard of. What's your, what's kind of your grand scheme with this?

NorCal Guy:

You know, I didn't think a whole lot of it long term. I was just kind of like it'd be cool to document artists along the way in like bite-sized clips, basically. And you know, and I just committed to once a week and just keep on grinding it out, that's about it. I mean just be like so. Part of it was I wanted this podcast to always be relevant, in a way like it wasn't topic based, right, whereas if we, if I was like asking topical questions on current events, you know it's outdated in two weeks. Yeah, true, true. So I want people to be able to listen to like the first episode and get something from the artist then and pick up whatever artist you want that I've interviewed and be able to get something from it yeah, yeah, I don't think anything like that exists.

NorCal Guy:

So that's, yeah, that's an interesting niche thanks you can't be alone with your own thoughts awesome. Do you have any other questions? That's all, all right. Do you have any shout outs or upcoming projects you would like to tell us?

Joey L:

about. I would like to say thank you to our mutual friend, chikai. Him in monolith gallery have helped so many artists entering this space and also established artists that are like from another world, like enter. So I would like to thank our mutual friend chikai for doing such a great job with our show and and during NFT NYC. I ran into him probably five times during the week and every single time I ran into him his voice was more and more screwed up and then by the end of it he didn't have a voice anymore, just because he was talking with every single person that he could. So I would like to show my love for Chikai. That's my special shout out and I'm very thankful for what he did for me with our last drop.

NorCal Guy:

I love chikai so much like he is good guy chikai, such a good, such a good person in this space and um, yeah, I I can't say enough good things about him, yeah that's my special shout out awesome. Well, joey, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Joey L:

This has been a very painless interview, thank you. Thank you for that. Yeah, I just want to keep it lighthearted. Yeah, no politics. It's great For a reason.

NorCal Guy:

Cool. Well, you have a good day and we'll talk soon. All right, brother. Thank you very much. All right Bye.

Joey L:

Who is?

NorCal Guy:

this, who is?

Joey L:

this guy.

NorCal Guy:

Who is this guy? Who is this guy? Who is this guy. Who is this guy? Norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal guy, norcalguy.