NorCal and Shill

Crawl Before You Ball: Life Lessons from a Canadian Dutch Artist

• NorCal Guy • Season 1 • Episode 179

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A serendipitous camera loan from his father changed everything for Ryan Koopmans, redirecting his path from architecture school to becoming an acclaimed lens-based artist whose work graces the pages of Vogue, GQ, and Architectural Digest. This fascinating twist of fate ultimately brought Koopmans full circle, as architecture became the primary subject of his photography for over a decade.

During our conversation, Koopmans reveals the profound impact NFTs have had on his perspective as a digital photographer. "What stood out most was the whole notion of digital ownership," he explains, describing the revolutionary concept of establishing "originals" for digital works—something previously impossible for digital photographers who lacked the equivalent of a film negative. This fundamental shift, combined with the royalty structure that supports artists beyond initial sales, transformed how Koopmans views his creative output and its place in the world.

Wisdom gleaned from years of artistic persistence permeates our discussion. "You gotta crawl before you ball," Koopmans shares, recounting advice from painter Nate Loman during his early days in New York. This philosophy of patience and embracing the grind resonates throughout his career journey—from grocery store produce manager to globally exhibited artist. His personal connection to peregrine falcons, which nest atop skyscrapers and represent "the perfect combination of form and function," perfectly mirrors his artistic approach to urban landscapes captured in his 2020 book "Vantage."

The future holds exciting developments for Koopmans, including an immersive photogrammetry project allowing viewers to virtually step inside his photographs, and a groundbreaking collaboration with the AI artist Botto. As we discuss the evolving relationship between NFT art and traditional institutions, his optimism for the space shines through, celebrating the community of artists, collectors and enthusiasts committed to pushing the boundaries of what art can be in the digital age.

Ready to experience more conversations with innovative creators? Subscribe to NorCal and Chill for weekly episodes exploring the intersection of art, technology, and the creative mindset.

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NorCal Guy:

Who is this? Who is this guy? Who is this guy? Who is this? Who is this guy? Who is this guy?

Ryan Koopmans:

Who is this guy? Norcal guy. Norcal guy. Norcal guy. Norcal guy. Norcal guy. Norcal guy. Norcal guy, norcal guy, norcal and chill podcast Show.

NorCal Guy:

It's chill time NorCal and chill podcast what the sh- what the sh-? Norcal and Shill Podcast. So it's shill time NorCal and Shill Podcast what the sh-, what the sh-. Hey everyone, welcome to the next episode of NorCal and Shill. Today's guest is Ryan Kopman. Ryan is a Canadian Dutch lens-based artist interested in the built environment and the societies that are shaped by those environments. Since 2007, he has worked as a full-time professional artist and photographer. His book Vantage, published in 2020, depicts surreal structures in our world's megacities and urban landscapes. Kopman's artwork is collected and exhibited worldwide and has been featured by Wired Architectural Digest, cnn, vogue, gq, the Guardian, mercedes-benz and many more. Everybody, please welcome Ryan. Hey, ryan, welcome to the podcast. How are you doing today?

Ryan Koopmans:

Hey, I'm great. Thank you so much for having me on. I'm super, super excited.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah, me too. Me too. I'm glad we finally get to chat.

Ryan Koopmans:

Never really have gotten to chat with you, no just seeing each other in passing at some of the different NFT events but never had a solid conversation.

NorCal Guy:

Right, right, I'm a little found out. You live in Sweden and I have such fond memories of Sweden and I love that country and I'm a little jealous.

Ryan Koopmans:

Yeah, it's definitely a great place to live. Like I was saying to you, I'm originally Canadian but my partner is Swedish place to live. Like I was saying to you, I'm originally Canadian but my partner is Swedish, so we live here and it's, you know, great quality of life, similar to Canada in a lot of ways and really friendly people, but well situated to go to other parts of the world, which is sort of the primary, you know, component of my work anyways, so Right right, it's a good spot. Good people, good culture.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah, yeah. Well, it seems like a lot of your work is from like close by and it seems like that's where a lot of that abandoned stuff is. Yeah, for sure, like eastern europe stuff. Yeah, it's awesome. So I guess, just jumping into it, do you have and use a hardware wallet?

Ryan Koopmans:

yes, I do, I do, it's one's. One of the early advices I got from the people that helped introduce to the space was to the importance of that. So I have both Trezors and Ledgers. Oh nice, I think they both serve a similar function, but they're super important.

NorCal Guy:

Right for sure, they're both very similar. I mean, they function a little bit differently, but they both. It's basically the same thing. What were your first thoughts when you heard about nfts?

Ryan Koopmans:

what stood out to me the most, like what was the most exciting, was just the whole notion of digital ownership, or like the ownership of digital assets.

Ryan Koopmans:

That concept was was super exciting because, you know, like my background is as a digitally native photographer and the whole you know tendency for your work to go exist out in the world, like once you put it out there, it sort of exists as this nameless jpeg which has a whole life of its own. So the idea that there could actually be, like an original prescribed to a particular you know piece or visual or file, so through its association with the token, was super, super interesting. And, yeah, like the ability to transfer that ownership in such a fluid way and in such like a recorded way where you could actually, you know, have it on on chain like that, on record, like that was super exciting. So that was sort of like the first big draw to the sort of you know what do you call it Like light bulb moment of oh, wow, was that? This is like totally changes how you look at digital assets and digital art.

NorCal Guy:

Right, right, I mean it's a huge change. I mean it took me a little while to get it, but once I did, I was just like it was huge, especially for digital artists, like you said, digital native artists especially. It seems like photographers have always had like this bad rap or not a bad rap, but like they never got their light in the moment or their moment in the spotlight and you know it's finally like hey, this is your time to shine.

Ryan Koopmans:

Yeah, for sure. And you know, like, with a photography like film negative, that can exist, as the say, original for a photograph, but with digital photography you never really had that. So to put some sort of structure of like of ownership and creation and authorship behind it, that was like super inspiring. And then other things that were really interesting, like the top were, you know, the notions of royalties being baked into you know the transaction, at least not into the contract but into the social contract. That was, uh, something that was super interesting as well yeah, no, I really like that part as well.

NorCal Guy:

You know to continually support the artist beyond the initial purchase, which is really cool, it's a great idea. And then you know to continually support the artist beyond the initial purchase, which is really cool, it's a great idea and then you know, of course, just the huge array of use cases that nfts could be prescribed to.

Ryan Koopmans:

It's like, once you start with one thing, it sort of leads to the next, leads to the next, and it's just been like a sort of overwhelming excitement and obsession since first learning about it?

NorCal Guy:

Right, right, no, I feel you on that one. I feel you on that one. So why did you choose art? What brought you to photography?

Ryan Koopmans:

So originally I was planning to be an architect and then during the you know after, at the end of my undergraduate, to go to architecture graduate school. During the portfolio making process, basically my dad lent me a camera and said why don't you try to take some pictures that maybe could fit into this you know creative portfolio? And through that process I sort of found myself like in this documentary photography project about this particular neighborhood in Vancouver that I was living in at the time and I realized pretty quickly that this was, if I could make photography and art, focusing on art and creating visuals, if I could make that my primary you know career and focus, then that seemed like the most exciting, most you know, inspiring and motivating thing. So I actually changed trajectories and pursued an MFA in photo, video and related media instead of architecture.

NorCal Guy:

Oh, wow.

Ryan Koopmans:

Yeah, and then, so that was 2009. And then graduated from that three years later and it's, you know, basically since I started, it just was full on. And of course, you know, I was like always creating art and being creative when I was younger, but as far as like making the serious commitment that this is what I was going to do for the rest of my life, that happened around that time. That transition from architecture Ironically, you know, the photography really came full circle, or everything came full circle. And now, for the last, I guess even decade, the primary subject has been architecture in and of itself. So it's like I found the right way. I wanted to look at architecture, which was like through a camera.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah, yeah, it's definitely fitting. I mean, you know, if that was your initial interest, that's what you want to do, and then you just went a different route. But same thing, and you know, it's bringing shining light on buildings that are beautiful Totally.

Ryan Koopmans:

Even when they're empty and influences and the way it reflects the sort of zeitgeist or the status or social context of the time, is something that I think comes from maybe an original interest in architecture itself.

NorCal Guy:

What jobs have you done along the way?

Ryan Koopmans:

Yeah, well, I've always from a young age. Maybe it's because of my Dutch father was always working in some kind of job from a really young age, maybe it's because of my dutch father was always working in some kind of job from a really young age. So, you know, from paper delivery as a pre-teen to grocery stores, that was sort of the thing that I spent probably the most time in up until, you know, through university, I was the assistant manager of the produce department of a grocery store.

Ryan Koopmans:

Oh, nice yeah so it's actually still used that knowledge of like fruit and vegetables in daily life quite a bit For sure.

Ryan Koopmans:

But you know, like, similar to what I was saying before, the moment I, like, discovered photography, or my you know passion and emerging obsession for it, I switched to just doing everything that I possibly could to make that my living. So shooting from events to documentary work, photojournalism, fashion I moved to New York, so there you pick up as many different kind of jobs as you can when you're early to afford living there and lifestyle there. So yeah, like it was just all genres of photography as soon as I discovered it right.

NorCal Guy:

No, it's good, it's good to hear about the hustle. Not many, you know, it's always, you know. I remember as a young guy I was just like, yeah, how they do that so quick, you know. And you're like, well, you know, they're like a generation and a half ahead of me, for sure I used to.

Ryan Koopmans:

Actually, when I was in new york I also assisted an artist like a painter there. His name is nate loman and he, you know, had like the amazing studio in tribeca and like the whole thing. He was also maybe a decade older than me or so and he just said you gotta crawl before you ball. So that was one of like the, the lessons that I really has still like live by.

Ryan Koopmans:

You know, like you have to, the grind is there's no like overnight success kind of thing and that that process of grinding is like part of giving yourself and sacrificing your whatever to your craft yeah man, I love that one yeah, because we'd be like complimenting something. You'd be like oh well, you got to crawl before your ball, so get back to stretching the canvas or whatever it was right it's so true, yeah, and you know, it makes you appreciate when you do get to that level.

NorCal Guy:

Definitely. All right, I made it. I did all this grunt work. I'm here, I can enjoy it.

Ryan Koopmans:

For sure. And, yeah, I mean you appreciate it and it's also something you can fall back on, I think, because, like you know, a lot of people ask like, oh, how do you feel about the market? And like you know, those kinds of things. And I think, for a lot of artists, like we've just we've gone through huge ebbs and flows of bears and bold moments through our whole career so far.

Ryan Koopmans:

So it's like it just is what it is and we're pretty like seasoned for the different market swings in that way to to just persevere because there's no, there's no other option, obviously for sure.

NorCal Guy:

So if you were an animal, what would you be, in a way?

Ryan Koopmans:

yeah, and I like this question a lot.

Ryan Koopmans:

I've always loved peregrine falcons, which is uh you know the type of falcon, but it has a tendency to live in like the really top of skyscrapers and in big cities, in mega cities, and they're like the fastest animal in the world too. But what I like about them so much is they're like the perfect combination of form and function. They're like highly efficient. You know, like no embellishments, like everything is there like super efficiently evolved, which I think is pretty cool. And you know like I released a book in 2020 called Vantage, which was a lot of images shot from really high up positions on skyscrapers, essentially down, looking at the urban landscape, and I often would think like okay, this is like Paragon Falcon perspective. So it's an animal I've had like an interest with. What about you?

NorCal Guy:

I've been going with the octopus.

Ryan Koopmans:

Okay, yeah, I don't know, you know.

NorCal Guy:

Oh, really, okay, yeah, I don't know. You know, they just kind of can blend in. They can just like hide when they need to hide, camouflage, or they can like be out, be friendly, super intelligent.

NorCal Guy:

I mean at least super. That's a side note. Yeah, they are intelligent, but yeah, they've just been like a fascinating creature, like and I had a saltwater tank when I was younger and the octopus was always something I always wanted to have as a pet, but I never got to that level. Because it's just, it is another step to like keeping that tank like the right settings for them.

Ryan Koopmans:

I can imagine it's really hard to keep that happy and healthy. Right If you don't if you're not, like an expert at saltwater tanks right.

NorCal Guy:

So I never did that, but it was always a dream very cool back in the day. Do you have a favorite food?

Ryan Koopmans:

favorite food. I think. Living in sweden, the food is good. I like fish soup sort of. It's like a hybrid of the two. It's really really good. My uh fiancee, alice she makes really good fish soup like from a recipe learned from her dad who's like a, you know, swedish coastal gothenburg fish sailor type. So yeah, that's definitely like become my favorite food over the last few years oh, that's awesome.

NorCal Guy:

That's great. What's the best piece of advice you have been given?

Ryan Koopmans:

tricky, you know. I mean like I think crawl before you.

Ryan Koopmans:

Ball has been pretty instrumental yeah, in the way I have been able to grind it out, but I think, like the idea that you are your own worst enemy, in the sense that you're the only thing that really stands in the way between your goals, and, whether that's like self-doubt or, you know, often you're like you're the harshest critic of your own work or you have, you know, some like imposter syndrome or any of these kind of like psychological barriers or sort of debilitating factors is is often comes from within as well and that, like your perspective, is everything.

Ryan Koopmans:

So how you can think about yourself and how you like deal with those thoughts and those kinds of things, I think is like a huge determining factor on happiness and success and, you know, progress and all that. So just recognizing the potential and the power of your own mind to be your worst enemy as well as your you know, your biggest asset, is something that I've thought about quite a bit and been, you know, conscious of since I was first, I guess, introduced to that concept yeah, no, that makes it's so hard to get in your head and just get stuck sometimes.

NorCal Guy:

But yeah, I agree, do you have advice for artists joining the crypto art space?

Ryan Koopmans:

Yeah, I think it's.

Ryan Koopmans:

Like you know, I've had the chance to mentor some artists through different programs, whether it's Zero X Society or Wild XYyz or some of these different web three, you know, like nft artist onboarding platforms, and the thing that always comes up is like it doesn't matter if it's an nft aspiring artist or regular artist, traditional artist.

Ryan Koopmans:

The main thing is just like that patience and persistence to just continue like focusing, keep your head down at work and get used to rejection, like don't take it personally and find that aspect of your work that you really love the most and that you truly connect with, and just really try to hone in on that and dive deep into. That is what I'd say, the main things being patience and persistence. So once you find that thing that you really want to commit to is then those are the two things that you just have to really commit to. And then, of course, more like practical advice be on Twitter, engage with your community, especially for NFT specific artists, because a huge part of the technology in and of itself is like the network effect and the, the community and connectivity of the work and the way that it is shared and and et cetera. So building that, like that online presence, I think has some value in the NFT world, more so even than the traditional art world.

NorCal Guy:

Yeah, no, that's good Solid. If you could live or move anywhere, where would you live? And?

Ryan Koopmans:

why I think I wanted to continue a life where I can be in different parts of the world at different times of the year, basically so you know whether it's following different projects which lead you to different parts of the world, or, you know, seasonal things, or being with family, because of my immediate family is still in Western Canada. So being able to have that freedom of movement and mobility like that is really what I want to have in the future. Stockholm's a great base, so I guess maintaining that kind of like you know, real privilege and gift that you have of being able to move around the world is really important to me, especially as you see, like geopolitical things and you know whatever kind of stuff happening in the world, it's not like something you can just take for granted.

NorCal Guy:

Right, right. Do you have any questions for me?

Ryan Koopmans:

yes, I do lots of questions, no, but perfect, perfect. I guess the one thing I'm super curious of is how you see the relationship between, I guess we could say like web three or, you know, nft art space and the traditional institutions, like with the, the emergence of, like the auction houses really having a presence, or traditional galleries or the museums. You know, how do you see the future of those two kind of things coming together and the pros and cons of it in a general way?

NorCal Guy:

right, that's interesting question question.

NorCal Guy:

So I mean, I'm not from that world at all but my initial thoughts would be like that generation currently that is like from what I remember hearing from I think it was like Patrick Amidon I was talking to about it the current like generation that determines like art is like in their 70s and 80s. So there's definitely like this gap there. So education from potential auction houses is definitely part of it. You know, I think they could one way they could spin it would be like hey, you can buy this thing, you know to diversify, and then we could shop it around to museums or whatever. And you know, make you know potentially make some money for you with this thing that's not hard to transport. You know, make you know potentially make some money for you with this thing that's not hard to transport. You know, I think that'd be interesting. But it's definitely going to be education for that older generation. But you know some of it's going to be taste. You know it's just not going to be their thing and it's just going to be a time thing.

Ryan Koopmans:

Do you have any like long-term plan or ideal outcome for your collection, or you just sort of go with the with the flow at the moment, or you know it would be cool to you know, put it in.

NorCal Guy:

some, you know like have like exhibits around. It'd be cool to have that, something along those lines, with an exhibit in museums showing the art to people. I think that'd be really awesome. I've haven't looked into it, but I myself just wanted to. I know there's like at the airports there's sometimes like this, like an open room, like that's like this mini gallery, and I've thought about like hey, what would it take to do that at like the Sacramento airport is the one that I frequent and they definitely have like something like that. So I'd like to get it out there and shown more for sure.

NorCal Guy:

You know, it's just not, I guess displays aren't quite there yet, but still, I mean the TVs don't look terrible or the computer monitors don't look terrible. You know it's only when you're like up close, is that when you're like noticing things. But I think my goal is to I'd like to get it out there and be able to like curate different, I guess, collections from within my whole collection. So, like hey, or maybe museums could be like hey, you know we're looking for this type of thing and I could like curate something and like submit it for like hey, if you guys are interested, I'd be willing to like share this, something like that would be cool, cause I know lots of the collectors. You know we all have our thing and we could all submit. Like it'd be like it'd be fun to have like a contest like that, like who submits like the better curated thing, it'd be fun.

Ryan Koopmans:

I know it's kind of all over the place that answer, but I guess just no, it's super interesting and I agree yeah, I mean, from artists perspective, I think it's so. Having the work shown is like one of the best parts of it, right? So if you can have your work seen, exhibited or displayed publicly or whatever that's, that's really really great great.

NorCal Guy:

No, I'd love to do that more. You know, and I think we're on the edge of being able to do that easier. It's great to have it. That time square stuff it's really cool, but it'd be great to have it you know where people are going to see the art intentionally. Yeah, any other questions?

Ryan Koopmans:

what are you most excited for for the rest of the year? Any particular projects or things that you're really is your passion at the moment?

NorCal Guy:

well, I mean a lot currently the project that clutch and I are working on, click Create. I'm really excited about it. You know we're using artists to curate each month and they have generally been picking like a theme or a prompt for the artists that they choose for that month to work off of, and that's been fun to see. You know, to try and have like a cohesive month that people can like look at the art and be like, okay, I understand where that art came from and curated by an artist, and you know, just each month is going to be different. I don't know. I'm excited about it. Yeah, I don't know.

NorCal Guy:

I mean, it's definitely a grind to get, because it sounds like whenever people hear about it, they like love it but haven't heard of it, and I think we're promoting artists and doing promos better than anyone has in this space. So that's, you know, that's what I'm excited about. We're getting to promote the artists and we're getting to have like diversity in our curation, because it'd be one thing if it was just like Clutch and I like like, oh, let's choose this for this month and let's choose for this month, but when you have artists, you know they have the potential to, because there's a ton of art I don't see and the artists bring that to the project for sure it helps just keep like a sort of finger on the pulse when you have multiple, you know different eyes, like suggesting different things, as opposed to it just coming down to like whatever's come across your feed, essentially right, right, for sure, for sure.

NorCal Guy:

But yeah, that's been fun. The next question is actually if you have any projects or shout outs you would like to do yeah, well, next week.

Ryan Koopmans:

I'm actually super excited about this. It's the first immersive space, like immersive piece that we're going to release, which is essentially like you can walk into the, the image you know, and then it'll be like a virtual immersive environment where you can look around and everything so shot like a whole photogrammetry scan of the inside of this building. And then there's the actual nft.

Ryan Koopmans:

Is is still like the two-dimensional, you know moving image, but the immersive component is the extra thing which is new and something I've wanted to do for a long time, because people are often saying like, uh, it'd be so cool to like go into this piece or like, oh, I want to sit there, or something like that. So it's the closest I've gotten to doing that. Also, working on a collaboration with bado. You know bado, the ai, you know collectively curated ai artist, and it's the first collaboration that they've done. So it's been super fun working with that community because it's basically the same as as how one would go back and forth and share ideas with a singular artist in a collaboration, but it's this sort of collective voice.

Ryan Koopmans:

So it's a really interesting process, but through it it's really actually drawing me more into the whole Botto concept and Botto project itself. Yeah, I think it's really interesting, actually.

NorCal Guy:

So the collapse should be fun too. Yeah, that sounds great shout outs.

Ryan Koopmans:

I mean shout out to everybody who's day in, day out, committed and, you know, trying to make it a better space, and whether it's artists or collectors or enthusiasts, I think that. I think it's something like really special and really unique and really encouraging that has emerged over the last few years and, of course, there's lots of noise and like peripheral genres of the NFT world which can take attention, but the art space and the people that, like, really believe in it, I think is we're on to something really interesting and I think it's super inspiring and exciting.

NorCal Guy:

Right, definitely is Well, ryan, I just want to thank you for your time, for coming on the show today, and I really appreciate it, and I hope to catch up with you at an event soon.

Ryan Koopmans:

Yeah, likewise, thank you so much for having me Nice to actually get to chat with you a bit and exactly see you somewhere soon, sometime this year, I hope yeah, that'd be great cool man.

NorCal Guy:

We'll take care. We'll talk soon. Thanks, have a good one, norcal, and chill.